The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Election a hurdle?!?!

In dialogues with non-reformed Christians a common problem I run into is that they can't get over election.

Out of exasperation I'm coming to the conclusion that I simply need to say: "Forget election, simply put Christ first and foremost and pray for the strength to do so!"

We may all agree that the Bible is filled with GOd's revealed truths or desire for man - God's decree or hidden truth is hinted to as well.

But are us Reformed being overly presumptuous in focusing on the hidden truths??? - when the Bible appears pretty straightfoward in the presentation of the revealed truths for man to obey and follow. Are we turning the Bible upside down to some extent and isolating the verses that focus on GOd's sovereignty and elective decree which does not seem to encompass a majority of the Word - in fact if it were not for Romans 9 we would have a much more difficult time making our cases.

Now with all this being said - I still believe in God's elective decree and that He has divinely chosen a Paul while leaving many other over to themselves. But is the Bible suppose to be presented the way we do in which the divine decree, election and predestination are at the forefront (i.e. Canons of Dordt) - Isn't that a confusing and insecurity provoking start point, especially when witnessing to those who are babes in the word or non-believers or even seasoned Christians of the non-Reformed variety.

Once again, if it wasn't for Augustine the Reformed perspective would probably never have been taught???

AJC said:


That is something that all of us have faced when speaking to non-Reformed Christians. And yet they need to be shown that they are placing their own traditions over the plain reading of Scripture. Lovingly, yes, but in the same way as we would show the charismatics their error or the dispensationalists theirs.


Why tell them to forget it? It is something that God revealed to us in His Word.


Hidden truth is not hinted at, it's hidden <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I would say that the doctrine of God's decrees and election is not merely "hinted at" and certainly not "hidden." Sure, we don't know everything about it, and we don't know specifically who the elect are, BUT that does not mean the doctrines aren't shown throughout the Scriptures.


But the case is that Reformed people use Scriptures from throughout the Bible. The reason that Romans 9, John 6, and Ephesians 1-2 are focused on is because those are extended passages most fully dealing with the issues at hand. It doesn't mean that the sovereignty of God or election are not taught anywhere else.


Divinely chosen a Paul? I assume that's a typo <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You tell me, which is a gospel that fits better with the Bible, a declaration of the Gospel most pleasing to God: a gospel that makes God into a wimp who is desperately pleading for sinners to choose him by their own freewill because he is powerless? or a Gospel that speaks of God's holiness, that He doesn't have the obligation to save anyone, and yet He out of love sent Christ to die for those who would believe in Him, and that if anyone is repentant for their sins and believing in Christ, it is by the sheer grace of God alone?

Also, what do you mean by insecurity? Are you talking about insecurity of salvation? Most people tosay think they are saved because they walked an aisle or were baptized or are a member of a church. They need to be rid of a FALSE security. Their security must lie in what Christ has done on the behalf of those who believe. And true, saving faith results in good works. 1 John would be a good book to use to examine oneself to see if we are in the faith.


I vehemently disagree. I am Reformed because of what the Bible teaches, bnot because of what Augustine wrote. That's sorta like saying "No one believed in the Trinity until Tertullian." The Trinity is believed by all true Christians, while one can be an Arminian and still be a Christian. And yet the Trinity is taught in a much less direct way than sovereignty, election, decrees of God are taught!

I meant Paul is a specific example - I do agree that God does the electing.

But I also am trying to be objective and see if we have any part to play (or cooperation) or if the revealed truths and commands are simply stated so that we have knowledge of what we must do and not what we have the ability to do.

I'm not saying we are in control but are we taking election too far??? Is there any part man plays, at least after they become a believer?

Becasue doesn't election as a starting point cause more fear and confusion over - am I elect???

I don't know if the clear message of the Bible is - Am I Chosen??? and unfortunately I think that is the knee-jerk reaction of the non-reformed when presented with our doctrine.

After reading your post and also your reply to SemperReformanda I have to conclude that these questions are the result of your continual exposing yourself to bad sources, whether it be friends, books or articles online. Let me ask you frankly, do you spend the majority of your time reading/listening to that which is opposed to the Reformed Faith? or do you spend your time studying the Scriptures and reading literature of the Reformers, Puritans and modern authors that hold to the historic doctrines of grace?

Now, allow me to suggest to you that although most people do have a problem with the biblical doctrine of Unconditional Election, that isn't their real problem. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The real problem is with the doctrine of Total Depravity. Just think about it.... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> If man is as corrupt as the Bible says he is and if man's nature is totally depraved so that he has no interest whatsoever in His Creator, never mind living a life of love and obedience before him, how else could any man be saved without God first electing him to salvation? Since man is dead in sin, nothing would ever get him to repent of his sins since he loves sin, never mind believing upon Christ and a bloody atonement in order to be reconciled to God. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> As long as someone believes that man has some kind of desire and or ability to "get saved", you will also find an aversion and objection to anything called Unconditional Election.

Oh really? Perhaps you need to read more of your Bible? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

See here: God's Indisputable Sovereignty

And if you haven't got a copy of A.W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God, then perhaps you should drop everything you are doing right now and go out, buy it and sit down and read it!!

What you are suggesting, whether you are aware of it or not, is that we die-hard Calvinists change the Gospel so that it is more "palatable" and/or "believable" to the unbelieving world. First, sorry, but that's already been done by the overwhelming majority of churches today. Secondly, this "other gospel" has been around since Bible days; see Gal 1ff. The TRUE Gospel has always been offensive to most people, even those who profess to be Christians. (cf. 2Cor 2:14-17) But in fact, the offensive of a sovereign God, a vicarious substitutionary atonement, a salvation by grace alone is in fact the "power of God unto salvation". (Rom 1:16; 10:16, 17) False gospels can only produce false "christians". And we know all too well how true that is today. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />

I'd really like you to read this article by J.I. Packer: The Old Gospel and the New. It's gotta help and it surely cannot hurt. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Once I ran away from home. I disappeared without a word for a couple of days. My father searched all over the city for me. He wasn't looking for just any kid who wanted to go home with him. He was looking and calling for me. No one else would do. I was his beloved son, I was the one Dad wanted. Dad wouldn't settle for any kid who happened to come along and say he'd go with Dad. Dad's heart and soul were after me. I was his choice, even though there were plenty of other runaway kids that would have been happy to go to my father's house.

That is the picture of election I want my non-Reformed friends to have. God's choice of us for Himself before the founding of the world is far more awesome than simply a general call to "whosoever will." The will is the part of us that is bound to sin! An unregenerate sinner can no more choose Christ than a male can choose to get pregnant. It simply isn't in him to do so, even if he wished it more than anything. Your heavenly Father chose you - personally, His beloved child. It makes me cry and laugh and love God all the more when I get a glimpse into what election really means. He chose me!

Here's a quote from the first chapter of The Sovereignty of God by Pink, that Pilgrim has recommended.

---------------------------------------

"How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being."

----------------------------------------------------

It is easy for me to see that the doctrine of election is hardly a doctrine to "hide" but should be shouted from the roof-tops.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

I respect all the feedback - but what about the lost, those that never had a chance, our dear ones that we care about and pray for - in reality the prayers mean nothing (they have more to do with our faith) but in terms of affecting the outcome, it's a lost cause becasue the end result is predetermined.

I know sovereign grace is more than just Romans 9 - there is quite a lot of Biblical support for sovereign grace BUT there is also a great deal of Biblical support for man's part in the equation - the command to believe and trust in the Lord Jesus, and the salvation granted to those that do. If all these commands are dependent solely on God's work aren't they superfluous or are they merely directions for the elect and condemnation for the non-elect?

Denny,

You gotta love that Pink fella, don't ya? He's not one to mince words. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />

There are two other books which I regularly recommend on this subject which are excellent reading:

1) Election: Love Before Time, by Kenneth Johns (Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing)

2) Chosen by God, by R.C. Sproul, Sr.

<hr>

From Election: Love Before Time

<font size="4">GOD IS GOD</font>

When you say to men “God is God”
They seem to see the truth and nod.
And when you say “He can do anything”
They will surely like that orthodox ring.

But when you say “HE chose”
Their minds begin to close.
For they have learned by rote,
Mankind has the deciding vote.

It matters not what Scriptures say;
Modern man must have his sway.
“Let God be God but not over me!”
In every man Adam shouts his plea.

For in each man there speaks a voice,
“Thank you, please, I’ll make my own choice.
Let God be God and do what I say.
If He won’t, then I won’t play.”

Then he boasts and appeals to reason,
“I chose God and I’m not teasin’.”
“Reason will answer,” men declare,
“We chose Him, that makes Him fair.”

Some never learn that they’ve got it wrong;
They just keep singing that tired old song.
Reason wins over every decree.
God does not decide they all agree.

“He has no rights over man’s clay.
We saved ourselves on a lucky day.”
This is the pride of Adam’s whole race,
“We need just a little of thy divine grace.”

And that pretty much tells man’s story;
If he needs little grace, he gets much glory.
Except that Truth just keeps on repeating,
“Don’t you know My grace you’re depleting?”

So, my friend

When you learn your opinion to shun,
You’ll probably find an “election” you’ve won.
You’ll hear, far above reason’s noise and din,
A voice, “My will too needed to be born again.

AJC,

Perhaps you didn't read my comment about the problem NOT being "Unconditional Election" but rather "Total Depravity"? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> The reason I ask you that is because your question is one which most ask who have no idea about man's natural condition or who have rejected the biblical teaching concerning man's depravity. For indeed, what "CHANCE" are you talking about? Chance? as if anyone is deserving of anything from God. And even if God were to provide an opportunity to every sinner who ever lived to hear the Gospel, do you actually think that anyone would respond in faith? Man is spiritually DEAD!! (Gen 6:7; 8:21; Psa 14:1-4; Jer 17:9; Jh 3:18, 19; Rom 3:10-18; Eph 2:1-5; 4:17-19; et al) Further, every man, woman and child that is conceived has the guilt of Adam imputed to them and they inherit a sin nature. Therefore if God had chosen to save but even one single individual, it would have been undeserving on their part and pure grace on His part. ALL are worthy of damnation.... NO ONE is deserving of a "chance" to be saved.

It is 100% true that all that God has determined will come to pass exactly as He has purposed. (Is 44:7; 46:9, 10; Psa 135:6; Dan 4:35: et al) But God's foreordination or predestination doesn't relieve men from being responsible to do what is required of them, even if is involves repenting of their sins and believing upon Christ.... even though they are totally incapable of doing so and in fact have no desire whatsoever for God, Christ or salvation. (Rom 9)

The question should not be nor is it, "Why did God hate Esau?", but rather the only correct question is, "Why and how did God love Jacob?" When a person is given to know their own sinfulness and their total inability to love God and trust in Christ, God's sovereign electing grace becomes one of the most precious truths they shall ever know. The greatest mystery becomes and will remain forever and ever is "Why of all the people on this earth did God reach down and set His love upon ME and make ME His own in the Lord Jesus Christ?" The only sufficient answer we can ever respond with is SOVEREIGN FREE GRACE!

In His grace,

AJC wrote:


If the "decision" is up to the will of men, why ask God to violate "free will" or "influence" an unsaved person to accept Christ?

It is because of predestination that we can pray for the lost with real confidence because we know that if that one is elect, their conversion is certain. A person who believes that it's all up to the individual would be "praying to the wrong person."

The image of God as a frustrated diety who must pace heaven's floors wringing His hands and hoping that someone on earth will "let Him" have His way; that one who accepts Christ has done God a huge favor by "allowing" Him to spare them from His justice; that Christ stands outside in the rain, longing for the warmth and coziness of our hearts knocking on the door - should be patently offensive to anyone who believes in the sovereign, almighty God of the Scriptures.

The human heart, first of all, is no place that the Most Holy should desire to dwell, because it is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked! Secondly it is we who are outside in the cold, longing to be let into the warmth of fellowship of God - not the other way around. And third, accepting Christ as Lord is the duty of every man - and failing that duty is the only reason that anyone has ever gone to hell.

Further suggested reading: Romans (the whole book)

-Robin

Great quote, Adopted. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

I could see what the average Arminian would probably say to it.
"Our God is sovereign and He can do whatever He wants. But He is also a gentleman and will not take away from our choice to choose Christ or not.
Satan on the other hand, is not a gentleman and is out to destroy." <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />

Tom

I would recommend that you study Reformed theology more; it appears that you don't really have a firm grasp yet. Pilgrim gave you some excellent recommendations and there are many other books and articles out there.

I must say that your questions kind of remind me of myself a few years back.



Absolutely not, Reformed theology doesn't just teach election and leave it at that. Other truths such as 'Total Depravity' and the rest of the doctrines of grace go hand in hand with election.


No and yes. No, man plays no part in their salvation. Yes after they are saved they do play a part in their spiritual growth, it is called sanctification. We become more and more like Christ as we discipline ourselves in the study of the Word of God and as we put what we learn into practice.


The better question would be- am I a Christian? I believe a study on 1John might be good way to answer this.


I think that question comes from a misunderstanding of the Biblical doctrine of election. To my knowledge, Reformed theologians do not teach us to ask that question.
If a non-Reformed person becomes confused when you tell them about election, try to convey to them, that they only need to be concerned about whether they are Christians or not. In doing so however, try to make sure you don't take away from the importance of the doctrine of election.
Perhaps you might show them an article that shows clearly what the Bible teaches about election.

On that note, I want to tell you of an experience that I had with a friend of mine concerning the doctrine of election.
I had been meeting with my friend for a while, talking to him about election and about Calvinism. Everytime however, I was met with a puzzled look. In the hope of helping him understand I rememdered a DVD I had called 'Amazing Grace' The History & Theology of Calvinism.
The next time we met we viewed this DVD and a light came on in his mind. The DVD was able to do what I was unable to and he now believes in the doctrines of grace.
If you are interested you can purchase this DVD here .

I thought I would end this post by giving you just some of the many Scripture passages on election.

A few Scriptures on Election: God's sovereign purpose in salvation.
Exodus 33:19, "And He said, "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."
Deut. 7:6-8, "For thou art a holy people unto the lord thy God, the Lord they God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all the people that are on the face of the earth. The lord id not set his love upon you or choose you because you were more in number than any people, for Ye were the fewest of all people, but because the Lord loved you."
Deut. 10:15, "Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day."
Joshua 11:20, "For it was the Lord who hardened their hearts, that they should come against Israel."
I Kings 20:42, "And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord, because thou hast let go out of they hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life."
II Chronicles 6:6, "But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be their, and David to be over my people Israel."
Psalm 33:12, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord and the people whom he hath chosen for His own inheritance."
Psalm 65:4 "Blessed is the man you choose and cause to approach you."
Psalm 78:67-70 , "Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph and chose not the tribe of Ephraim, but chose the tribe of Judah, the mount of Zion which he loved. He chose David also his servant and took him form the sheepfolds. "
Psalm 135:4, "For the Lord hath chosen Jacob for himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure."
Proverbs 16:4, "The Lord hath made all things for himself, even the wicked for the day of evil."
Proverbs 21:1, "The Kings heart is in the hand of the Lord as the rivers of water, he turneth it withersoever he will."
Isaiah 44:1-2, "Yet now hear O Jacob my servant whom I have chosen...and thou Jerusalem whom I have chosen."
Isaiah 45:4, "For Jacob my servants sake and Israel's mine elect, I have called thee by thy name."
Jeremiah 1:5, "Before I formed thee in the womb I knew thee, and before thou hast come out of the womb I saved thee, and I ordained thee as a prophet to the nations."
Malachi 1:2-3, "I d you saith the Lord, "But how have you loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord, yet Jacob I loved and Esau I hated."
Matthew 20:16, "For many are called but few are chosen."
Matthew 24:22, 24 "And except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved, but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Insomuch as it were possible they shall deceive the very elect. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of the trumpet and they shall gather together the elect from the four winds."
Mark 13:20, 22, 27 (repeat above)
Luke 8:10, "Unto you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God; but to others in parables, that seeing they may not see and hearing they may not hear." (Matthew 11:25)
Luke 18:7, "And shall not God avenge his own elect which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them."
John 6:37, 39, 65, "All that the Father shall give to me shall come to me...And this is the father's will which hath sent me, that all of which he hath given me I should lose none of them...No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day...Therefore no man come to me except it is granted to him by the Father."
John 10: 14, "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep and they know me, even as the Father knoweth me and I know the Father and I lay my life down for the sheep, but Ye do not believe, for Ye are not my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
John 13:18, "I speak not of you all, I know those whom I have chosen..."15:16, "Ye have not chosen me but I have chosen you and ordained you that Ye should go and bring forth fruit, fruit that shall remain..."15:19, "If Ye were of the world the world would love its own, but because you are not of the world but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."17:19, "I pray for the believers, I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me, for they are yours."
Acts 2:23, "Jesus being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, Ye have taken, and by wicked hands has crucified and slain."
Acts 2:46-47, "And they continuing daily with one accord in the temple and breaking bread from house to house did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily as many as should be saved."
Acts 4:28, "Herod and Pontius Pilate did whatsoever they hand and thy counsel determined before hand should happen."
Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
Acts 22:14, "And he said the God of our fathers hath chosen thee that thou shouldst know his will and see that Just One, Jesus, and should hear the voice of his mouth."
Romans 8:29, 30, 33, "For whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son...moreover whom he did predestine them he also called, them he called, these he also justified, these he justified, these he also glorified. Who shall lay any charge to God's elect?"
Romans 9:6-26, "And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac (For the children not yet being born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election may stand, not of works but of Him who calls), I t was said unto unto her, the older shall serve the younger, As it is written, Jacob I d Esau I have hated. What shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with God? Certainly not. For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will show compassion on whom I will show compassion. So then it is not of man who wills, or him who runneth, bu8t God who shows mercy. For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose I have raise you up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my might shall be seen throughout all the earth. Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whomever he shall hardeneth he shall hardeneth. You will say unto me, why does he still find fault? Shall the thing formed say to the him which formed it, why did you make me this way? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make on vessel unto honor and one for dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, endued patience the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?"
Romans 11:5, 7-8, 28, "Even so at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. What then, Israel has not obtained that which he had seeketh for, but the elect have obtained it and the rest were blinded. According to what was written, "God has given them a spirit of slumber, eyes that should not see. As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but as for the elect they are the beloved of God..."
I Cor. 1:27-29, "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the wise, and the base things of the world and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea and things which are not saved to bring to nought that they are. That no flesh should glory in his presence."
Galatians 1:15, "But it pleased God who separated me from my mother's womb at birth, and called me by his grace."
Ephesians 1:5, 11, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will...In whom we also have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will."
Ephesians 3:11, "According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus.."
Colossians 3:12, "Put on therefore as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long-suffering..."
I Thessalonians 1:4, "Remember without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in Jesus Christ in the sight of God and our Father; knowing brethren beloved, you election with God."
1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thessalonians 2:13, "But we are bound to give thanks always for you to God, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."
2 Timothy 2:10, "Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect..."
Titus 1:1, "Paul a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness."
1 Peter 1:1-2, "Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."
1 Peter 2:9, "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, peculiar people;"
1 Peter 5:13, "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you..."
2 Peter 1:10, "Give diligence and make your calling and election sure..."

Wow! You guys gave me a lot of attention on this matter - I feel like you really care and you don't even know me from Adam - or maybe you do

Did one of you guys answer this one? If I missed it I apologize:

If all these commands are dependent solely on God's work aren't they superfluous or are they merely directions for the elect and condemnation for the non-elect?

I think Tom kind of answered it.

Why would they be superfluous? Man is totally responsible aside from any inability he might have to obey God. When God commands: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48) or ". . . Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1Pet 1:16), our we therefore exempt from such things because it is impossible to succeed in doing so? It is imperative to remember that man's fallenness is no excuse for his fallenness. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Men are wholly responsible for the way they are and the condition of their dead souls. A man who drinks himself into a drunken stupor and then gets behind the wheel of a car is totally responsible for killing a pedestrian even though he is incapable of avoiding the accident.

Here is a marvelous quote from that article I referred you to earlier "The Old Gospel and the New" by J.I. Packer:

We have an entire section on The Highway dedicated to articles and books on "Predestination" which you can find here: Predestination Index.

And among those many articles, there are two in particular you might find helpful:

1) Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered, by A.W. Pink

2) Objections Answered to the Doctrine of Predestination, by Loraine Boettner

In His grace,

AJC

Just in case you missed something I just edited something into my post, that I think may be of some help to you.
I would recommend that you get a DVD called 'Amazing Grace' The History Theology of Calvinism.
If you are interested in find out more go here .
This DVD helped me help a friend to understand and embrace the doctrines of grace. I highly recommend it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

You said:
Not sure this answers you question, but correct understanding doctrines such as election, gives us a better understanding of our sovereign God. It also helps us to focus our minds to look at the rest of Scripture, through God's eyes, instead of our own.
Arminians view election through there own fallible eyes and as a result see the Reformed (Biblical) view of election as an insult to their intelligence.
Romans 9:21 is but a glimpse of how to look at life through God's eyes.

Tom