The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum THE DEVIL'S COUNTERFEIT

Dear Friends of God,

Some authors make a lot more sense than others and some make little sense at all, but some writers just seem to hit the button every time. (Well almost every time)

Let me just unpack this a little. Pre-Christ I was as are most in the world, obsessed with Unity. I wanted my world to be Unified, I wanted everyone 'To just get along'...I was a true child of this world, and the spirit of this world. I had not the Spirit of Christ and was therefore, none of His. The spirit of this world tends towards a Unity, much like what old John Lennon sung about, "All we are asking is give peace a chance." Now tell a advocate of the spirit of this world, that it is 'pie in the sky, when you die', he might reply, "Your Jesus is pie in the sky when you die." Really friends, what is Christian Unity ?

Paul was so right when he wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, 'when I was a child, I spoke as a child, 'reasoned' as a child....but when I became a man (Christ's man, a new creation), I put away with childish things. Such as 'unification of the world, church, etc' the only Unity that is possible is the Unity that is in Christ, anything which is not upon this foundation is going to fall apart, be it a country club, a Union, a Soccer Club, a Church, a Denomination, a Religion, even your marriage ... 'and friendship with the world is' .... etc

I found the following article (reference below) to be of substance: Perhaps we can talk about the points discussed ?

These for instance:

1. In the first place, true Christian unity is a "unity of the Spirit," that is, a unity which the Holy Spirit dwelling in and controlling the hearts of regenerated men, women and children brings to pass.

2. In the second place, true Christian union or unity is a union that results from prayer.

3. In the third place, true Christian union is a union in Christ Jesus.

4. In the fourth place, true Christian union is a union in the Truth, a union between those who believe the great fundamentals of the Christian faith, and between these alone.

The writer mentions some of the fundamentals, perhaps we can discuss them and add some more.

a. The first of all of these fundamentals is the absolute deity of Jesus Christ.
b. The second fundamental is the absolute, final and infallible authority of the Bible.
c. The third great fundamental is the substitutionary character of the atoning death of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.
d. Again, anyone who denies the doctrine of the literal resurrection of the body of Jesus Christ from the dead is a follower of the Antichrist.
e. Still again, anyone who denies the virgin birth of our Lord is a follower of the Antichrist.
f. In the fifth place, true Christian unity is a unity of men and women who believe in Jesus Christ, a union of regenerated men and women.

The 1st Dean of B.I.O.L.A. ends with this rather amusing stanza: Titled: 'The Devil's Counterfeit' - Let me know what you think about the whole article, as well ?


From 'True Christian Union and the Devil's Counterfeit by R.A. Torrey (1st Dean of B.I.O.L.A.)
link: click here

For some one who is supposedly "taking a sabbatical from posting" so as to listen at least as much as you speak (figuratively, of course), you must be a very fast reader! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" />

I agree with much in that article about the extent to which Christians are to be united around doctrine. There are clearly some points where doctrine divides people of good conscience - yet that is not disunity. Our union in Christ transcends our differences about modes of baptism, eschatological opinions, forms of church government, etc. Yet here on earth, fallible and flawed as we are, the Church can still function even with all these differences. That in itself is amazing evidence of Christ's transcending unity.

-Robin

I decided to end the sabbatical as I am a VERY slow reader. I think I mentioned this before. I also have a tall cabinet full of articles I still have not read yet, plus a smaller one, also full. I know I have said before my favourite read is the Bible and let me add that it is the one book that gets my foremost attention. I have also mentioned that I am currently reading in the Old Testament. In the book of Hosea. I do indulge every so now and then and RA Torrey has been one author that has held my attention because he teaches very acurately on the topic of the 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit.'

This article is a very valuable one and I hope that others will find as much as you did about the importance of 'sound doctrine'. Amen.

I am not sure I understand your idea about Christ transcending unity. Do you mean the worldly idea of Unity or the truth of Christian Unity ? (John 17)

What are your thoughts on points 1 - 3 and did you notice that your point regarding 'back to the bible' is (b). (There is a lot more that you can add to your programme for the ex-Charismatics forum.)

Speaking of devilish counterfeits, the idea that "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a distinct phenomenon subsequent to the new birth (regeneration) is one such counterfeit.

I did not say that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a 'distinct phenomonen' and R.A. Torrey does not teach it as such. Neither do I. ( Torrey actually taught on the subject of 'the Baptism [with] the Holy Spirit' a mere 82 pages.) He has another article I noticed titled: 'The Personality of the Holy Spirit' - I am looking forward to reading that when I have finished the mountain of references I have already received here. (Actually I am so enjoying reading Torrey - 1st Dean of BIOLA - that I am ignoring everything.) I should get finished with Hosea...naughty, naughty. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />

* what do you mean by 'distinct phenomenon' ?

Acts 8:12-16 ?

How about Acts 8:12-16 for starters ?

How about it?

You have already stated that neither you nor Torrey teach that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is distinct from and subsequent to the new birth (regeneration). I proved you were wrong about Torrey; and now do you reverse yourself?

Woh, CovenantInBlood...

You said:

I said:

You said: (well quoted R.A. Torrey)

It was 1.44am when I read this and well I just figured you had got it from something on the internet. (The date 1897 was a dead giveaway. I mean who has a copy that old. Okay, you might have downloaded something from CCEL.) I have a 1972 copy and though your quote is spot on, it needs to be considered in context.

My objection was not to the word distinct, but to coupling it with the world 'phenomenon' : meaning
and for good reason; RA Torrey does not teach the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a 'distinct phenomonen' and neither do I. However, to say that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is distinct, is quite correct. R.A. Torrey's teaching on this is very non-phenomonen orientated and he is actually quite clear in making a point against those who insist upon the 'phenomena' of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

It is this rather misleading word that has been used to identify those who are all about the BIG EXPERIENCE, the BIG FEELING EVENT etc. I would never teach this for I know that the Spirit is received by the hearing of faith and a direct result of prayer according to the will of God.

Being an ex-CHARISMATIC, well as far as boxes go I might be inclined to retain that title, but for now I am not one who supports the idea that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is a phenomona.

The idea that one can be baptised with the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism (not infant) but never prior to faith in Christ; seems to be supported by the Scriptures.

So many Charismatics demanded the show (tongues) I have not this view. The Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a result of a believing prayer to the Father in Jesus name according to the will of God. Asking and believing, settles the matter, the need for a phenomena is probably the reason why I call myself ex-Charismatic.

Torrey actually steers away from phenomonon and places the baptism with the Holy Spirit in the arena of faith and answered prayer, pointing out that the New Testament does not describe a paricular experience. Though he does point out that one might and that they differ from person to person, BUT the real reason for the ministration of the Spirit is to profit withal. The motives are very clearly settled in his tiny book, a worthy read for someone who does not want to 'throw the baby out with the bath water.'

I am happy for this thread to pursue a careful exploration of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Obviously our exchanges need to be very gentle and respectful as we are talking about the Comforter, Counsellor, the promise of the Spirit (Galatians 3:14). Our teacher, and the one who leads us and guides us into all truth.

Seeing as I am sure that not everyone has a copy of this book, I am going to type in a little of what R.A. Torrey wrote so as to not appear to be avoiding the issue of 'phenomonen'.


Certainly where 'phenomenon' is taught in regard to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, it is going to be most misleading and ultimately lead to a place where people are moving in the realm of the sensual and not the Spirit. (sensual phenomenon vs. manifestation of the Spirit - perhaps a good title for a future discussion.)

When I was 16 going on 17, an unbeliever at the time, I was dragged down to the Church where a man was praying for people to be baptised with the Holy Spirit. He would stay praying for a person until they 'manifested' - tongues. I sat there and my turn was next...I thought quickly, I can do this, just make up some non-sensical jargon and he will move on. He did. So yes, counterfeits happen all the time. Only when I was 18, was I able to take the step of repentance and faith, as was the peradventure of God to include me in His Son. Jesus taught that if we ask the Father for the Spirit, a believing prayer He shall give us the promise. So it was that I prayed in my cell (Naval Detention) with the same faith for the baptism with the Holy Spirit. I had no manifestation AT all. On both counts. But I knew that I had been able to believe on Christ, and that I had been able to pray for the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Praying can be manufactured, but genuine faith in Christ, is only possible when God opens one's heart as He did with Lydia. He had opened my heart.

So I was released from prison and went to my barracks at a place called 'SAN Barracks'. Sure I felt wonderfully clean and new. I was still smoking my Dumont cigarettes, I am not sure if I still was cussing, but I was pretty green.

My Lt. Cdr (Colin Chambers) asked me if I would like to come to a retreat in the mountains above Llundudno, appropriately called, "Apostle's Battery" and there upon my knees while attempting to pray. (in the child, clasped hands pose, it was so cute) Praying is so hard if you do not have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, for He helps us. Well, at that point as I was praying I ran out of words and suddenly I had a whole lot more to give and my heart just exploded with prayer. It is at this point that I now understood that I had the manifestation of the Spirit. (In prayer...and what glorious prayer, I went from being a mumbler to quite an accomplished prayer. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Well, I was eventually baptised in water,(some 2 years later) though I admit it took a lot of convincing by one elder at the Assembly of God, his name was Mr Ron Swanepoel (they called him 'Ron the baptist'). Now that is my experience, but it is different for each believers and some of the events are not so widely seperated for others, for some it is just one step after the other. - It probably depends on how wilful one is.

Accept Christ by faith, accept the Holy Spirit by faith, and follow Christ. All in a few minutes. To place a particular experience up for scrutiny is to deny the fact that God works with each of us induviduals.

I am going to leave you to think about what I have written before you present your reasons as to why you believe the baptism with the Holy Spirit is not distinct. ( I think we can pretty much agree that 'phenomenon' applies to the extreme experiential orientated crowd who make it all about a particular manifestation. ie: tongues. I don't teach this !)

Looking forward to your answer.

R.A. Torrey taught charismatic heresy and legalism. Click here for a critique of Torrey's book The Holy Spirit: Who He is and What He Does in which he lays out "seven easy steps" to receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Torrey was a perfectionist in the extreme, and his advice is centered on human effort to "acheive" favor and blessing with God. This legalistic view of receiving Holy Spirit baptism by MERIT is the very reverse of sola gracia and sola fide.

Much of Torrey's writings refer to earlier forms of perfectionism, like "entire sanctification," "holiness," "the second blessing" and more recently "Holy Spirit Baptism." In every case the theology is based on merit rather than grace, and wrongly separates "Holy Spirit baptism" from regeneration.

-Robin

Well, Robin.

Let's look at 'three' of the seven steps and discover if as you say: 'Torrey was a perfectionist in the extreme, and his advice is centered on human effort to "acheive" favor and blessing with God.'


So far that seems pretty good.


That seems like a good idea.


That seems to be correct. Right ?


I am happy with that, and you ?


Now rather than leaving this lying out there and once again we get the whole context lost, I am going to give the second step.


Agreed ?


Amen to that.


Here comes the example from Mr. Finney.


Good so far ?

Considering this 'third step' is about the original question relating to 'distinct phenomenon' - the word 'phenomenon' which I showed really does not fit. (Get a copy of this book if you want to explore the last four steps; dealing with (4)'obedience'-total surrender to the will of God.(Acts 5:32), (5)'real and intense desire'-(Isaiah 44:3), (6)'asking'-definite asking, for a definite blessing.(Luke 11:13) and (7)'believe that ye receive'(Mark 11:24) - pretty good reading. I especially enjoyed Chapter 4 : "Fresh Baptisms" with the Holy Spirit or the Refilling of the Holy Spirit.


Pretty much answers the question of 'distinct'. It seems that Scriptures support this idea very positively, right ? No ? Which one's do you believe teach us that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is not after 'repenting and believing the truth' ?

These two lines were added to your post by an edit AFTER my response was posted. So no, that is NOT what you had said when I posted the quote from R.A. Torrey.


It's true, I did get it from the Internet. I do not have an 1897 edition of Torrey's book. But what little I know of Torrey, I do know that he believed the baptism with the Holy Spirit to be distinct from conversion. Little wonder his teachings influenced Pentecostalism.


All I meant by "phenomenon" is "event," which is synonymous. Regeneration also is an "event."


Cornelius and his household had not even heard of baptism with the Holy Spirit, and yet they were baptized with the Holy Spirit, without asking, because they believed the gospel Peter preached to them (Acts 10:44-48).


No, rather, it is to deny the idea that every experience is valid and biblically warranted.

As for Acts 8:14-17, which you brought up before, it is instructive to note that the Holy Spirit was received by the Samaritans by the laying on of hands by the Apostles (the same is true also of John's Ephesian disciples, Acts 19:1-7). Now, did you wait to have the Apostles lay hands on you to be baptized with the Holy Spirit? Did Cornelius? Did the 120 in the upper room? Or what about the seven deacons (Acts 6:1-6)? Had they not received the Spirit until the apostles laid hands on them (Hint: check out v. 3!)?

Now there is reason for some of the variations in the book of Acts as to the specifics of being baptized with the Holy Spirit--and the reason has to do with the unique historical situation which Acts describes, the transition from the old dispensation (the Jewish Church) to the new dispensation (the universal, Jewish & Gentile, Church). But it is plain enough that, normatively, baptism in the Holy Spirit belongs to all who believe. As Paul writes, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit" (I Cor. 12:13). The inspired apostle also writes,


No hint of a distinct "baptism with the Holy Spirit" here.

Straw, this is perfectionism, as Robin rightly noted. The idea that we must cease all sinning in order to receive further blessing from God will do one of two things: It will either 1) make us despair of being blessed by God, or it will 2) make us arrogantly believe that we have achieved a state of sinlessness. Receiving the Holy Spirit, far from requiring that we first put away all sin, is what makes it POSSIBLE to resist sin in the first place!

The article I linked to addresses every single one of your objections more succinctly than I can.

Torrey's "seven easy steps" describe Holiness Movement-style perfectionism. It demands a purity and holiness of spirit which cannot be achieved without it as a prerequisite for getting it!

If one can "get the baptism in the Spirit" by attaining Torrey's standard of worthiness without the baptism, what do we need Holy Spirit baptism for? Or conversely, since we cannot achieve Torrey's standard of purity without being baptized in the Holy Spirit, how can such purity be a condition of receiving Holy Spirit baptism?

That is legalism and perfectionism by definition. It flies in the face of grace. It reduces the gospel to mere moralism. It nullifies the finished work of Christ by adding new conditions to the gift of God which He Himself does not require.

This is so true, and by nullifying the finished work of Christ, how may the perfectionists truly understand what the perfect Son of God has done for us as our human representative? It is because of Him that God imputes to us a perfect holiness. Denying or minimizing our desperate need for this imputed righteousness of Christ inevitably results in one's own spiritual navel gazing, the pursuit of extra-scriptural revelation and often spiritual despair.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24