Hello Troy.<br><br>Are not they both Arminians ? I have not read either authors but I think they are arminians but we shall have to wait for another reply to be sure.<br><br>Welcome to the board Troy!<br><br>howard
Yes of course they are as well as I, praise the Lord!!! Just like God. That is why they are so spiritual, because they adhere to God's divine laws and spiritual truths.
Troy,<br><br>Though Watchman Nee wrote a 3 volume work entitled The Spiritual Man he is not what I would consider a "spiritual man" in the Biblical and Reformed sense of the term "spiritual." He professed Christianity (from what we know) and suffered greatly (imprisoned in China) for his writings until his death in 1972 (he was released from prison just shortly before his death). But he went into extremes and error. Errors such as the Arminian "baptism in the Holy Ghost" for power in service and spiritual warfare (second blessing), exercise of the sign gifts, inner light and intuitive revelation, perfectionism, demon possession of believers, and exorcism. He stressed that Christian "victory" is not gained by teaching, doctrine, or prayer, but by just four words of praise. The assemblies often repeat in unison, either spoken, sung, or shouted: "O Lord, Amen, Hallelujah!" Lee's method of teaching and control is a definite form of brainwashing. All who join his assemblies are admonished to forget all the doctrine they ever knew, and submit to the ways and teachings of the Leeites. <br><br>You can read more here: WATCHMAN NEE & WITNESS LEE<br>
God is arminian? Care to show us this in a new thread?<br><br>I have about half of Watchman Nees books. They were given to me long ago when I was charismatic. I have read three, but that was also some time ago. My understanding is he can be quite subjective and is basically hyper-charismatic in some of his doctrine. Just a personal observation.<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william
The truth is Watchman Nee is not charasmatic meaning he is against gibberish.<br><br>He weighs the subjective and the objective perfectly as scripture desires<br><br>His IQ far exeeds anyone you have ever met in your life. Apparently he was a genius with an IQ off the charts. He also had an authentic photogenic memory. Over 3000 read books in his library, known for scanning church historyl, was martyred the last 20 years of his life in jail. With all this ability what is most striking is such a pure intuitive conscience of the likes I have never met in another man besides Jesus Christ.<br>
I don't know what reformed sense means. I have seen no greater work apart from the Bible than in "The Spiritual Man", a perfectionist work of the redemptive design, if I may be so bold as to call it that. You mentioned extremes and error. What extremes and error?<br><br>What is wrong with armenian baptism of the holy spirit? and for service?<br><br>I am not aware in his writings he believes in so called second blessings. He does believe in spiritual warfare. Is there something wrong with rebuking the devil?<br><br>Exercise of the sign gifts? What do mean? Are you aware Nee cared for the inner man much less the outer gifts?<br><br>What is wrong with the inner light of the HOly Spirit indwelling?<br><br>Why do you believe intuitive revelation in the spirit is wrong?<br><br>What is wrong with God perfecting us?<br><br>Why do you think it is not possible for a Christian to be possessed. What makes him immune? or free to be susceptible<br><br>Like Jessie-Penn Lewis, Nee did not agree with the Charismatic exorcisms, why do you think he did?<br><br>Why do you think Watchman Nee believed in 4 words of praise, and in so believing this why have you married him to Witness Lee's cult?<br><br>Why do you not think Nee believed in victory, teaching, doctrien and prayer?<br><br>Watchman Nee if he were alive today would rebuke Witness Lee's teachings in the name of the Lord. Are you aware of this?<br><br>Do you see the difference between Lee and Nee?<br><br><br><br>
Miles writes "There was no need for brother Nee to fear that which he considered to be perfect, but rather should he have realized and feared the book's imperfections--errors of a very serious nature, as we have seen."<br><br>It is unclear what that error is. His concern for taking them only as principles and not inwrought spiritual truths was his concern. To say something is wrong but not say why or to assume more into what is said is lacking it seems.<br><br>I noticed he married Nee to Lee at the bottom of his posting of 4 word prayers and other weepings. Watchman Nee would of course not condone this. It's unfortunate but to me that is an indication when someone touches spiritual reality it is opening the doors to the supernatural realm and as others try to walk through they often will falter and let in things that should not be let in.<br><br><br><br>
Dear brother Troy,<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]His IQ far exeeds anyone you have ever met in your life</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>How would you know that? Surely he is not the only Christian "genius"[if he is one];. Do you have proof that averagefeller has not met one or read material from one that is? I personally don't call anyone "genius", as far as concerning the scriptures,whom deny God's absolute sovereignty, considering it's obvious pervasiness throughout the bible. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>Over 3000 read books in his library, known for scanning church historyl....With all this ability what is most striking is such a pure intuitive conscience of the likes I have never met in another man besides Jesus Christ.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I can pretty much say that about many of the puritans and of edwards.<br><br>I hope this doesn't sound offensive, but I thought your post contained too much boasting. If have misunderstood them, please let me know. <br><br>brother in Christ,<br>Carlos
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
In reply to: I don't know what reformed sense means. I have seen no greater work apart from the Bible than in "The Spiritual Man", a perfectionist work of the redemptive design, if I may be so bold as to call it that. You mentioned extremes and error. What extremes and error?[/color]
Reformed in the Calvinistic sense of the term. I have read the 3 volume set called The Spiritual Man many years ago. Do you think The Spiritual Man is an inspired work of the Holy Spirit without error, as the Holy Scripture is? Do you agree with Nee’s own assessment of his own work?
Long after this book's initial publication in Chinese our brother Nee was once heard to express the thought that it should not be reprinted because, it being such a 'perfect' treatment of its subject, he was fearful lest the book become to its readers merely a manual for principles and not a guide to experience as well.
Vol. 1, Explanatory Notes
Let us look at the rest of your questions below. These will address “some” other problems in his writings.
In reply to:What is wrong with arminian baptism of the holy spirit?
There are several problems here:
1. This is a form of baptismal regeneration in which he believed that baptism justifies, cleanses from sins, and frees ones from demons and to serve God.
2. a priest immerses a child three times into the water invoking the Holy Trinity, so that the newly baptized child is now ready to receive the Holy Spirit.
3. With the singing of the hymn Aghpiur Genatz, a priest pours Holy Muron into the palm of his hand and he seals therewith the child’s forehead, eyes, ears, nostrils, mouth, hands, heart, back, and feet beseeching the Holy Spirit to seal the Faith willingly accepted by the newly-baptized and to protect the child’s sight, thoughts, words, deeds, and service from the influences of evil in the world.[/LIST] Do you see any problems here?
In reply to:I am not aware in his writings he believes in so called second blessings.
He believes in a separate filling of God after salvation, that being the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He did not push the tongues issue as much as many today, but he did push the second blessing issue of this separate baptism against Scripture, which says: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his (Rom 8:9). Thus, how can one be saved and not already have the Spirit of Christ, for is it not the Spirit himself that beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God? (Rom 8:16).
In reply to:He does believe in spiritual warfare. Is there something wrong with rebuking the devil?
I like to talk to God and not to demons. Eve tried that and it did not work out to well for any of us. But, yes, I believe in Spiritual Warfare. It is a great battle that is fought 24/7 by prayer, proper study, proper discipline... But, as far as seeing a demon around every corner and casting them out in today’s day and time, no that is not spiritual warfare.
In reply to:Exercise of the sign gifts? What do mean? Are you aware Nee cared for the inner man much less the outer gifts?
Nee believed that ALL the gifts were still available today when Scripture is clear that many have ceased.
In reply to:Why do you believe intuitive revelation in the spirit is wrong?
Nee said, Spiritual life is maintained simply by heeding the direction of the spirit's intuition. The believer will wait quietly for the voice of the Holy Spirit to be heard in his spirit, intuitively. Upon hearing the inner voice he rises up to work, obeying the direction of intuition (Spiritual Man, vol 1, p 149) and, Well do we begin if we follow intuition instead of thought. To perform God's will a Christian need simply heed the direction of his intuition. There is no necessity to ask others, or even to ask yourself (vol 2, p 31 & 74).
Now the Scriptures say, These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word [i]with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so[/i] (Acts 17:11) and that the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it (Jer 17:9)? Now, I ask you, are we to search the Scriptures with our intuition or a renewed mind (Rom 12:2)? God does not embrace mindless Christianity and mysticism.
In reply to:What is wrong with God perfecting us?
Nothing, but I did not say that. I used the term perfectionism , which is a state in the Christian life where you just don't sin anymore. The Scripture states, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8). But, Nee byspiritual intuition, against the Scripture, said we could arrive at a state of perfectionism saying, Whoever genuinely desires to be perfect must let the Cross cut deep into his emotion, (vol 2, p 195), and again, on page 256, when a believer has experienced the practical treatment of the Cross he finally arrives at a pure life. He sums up this false theology by saying, [color:red]they forget that unless all nerve responses, sensations, actions, conduct, words, food and speech which belong to the body are utterly for the Lord, they can never arrive at perfection (vol 3, p 149).
In reply to:Why do you think it is not possible for a Christian to be possessed. What makes him immune? or free to be susceptible
Show me one Scripture where a Christian was possessed by a demon?
In reply to:Why do you think Watchman Nee believed in 4 words of praise, and in so believing this why have you married him to Witness Lee's cult?
Lee was a disciple and co-laborer with Watchman Nee for 25 years (1925-1950). In 1934 Watchman Nee entrusted Witness Lee with the responsibility for his publication operation, called the Shanghai Gospel Bookroom. In 1949, Witness Lee was sent by Watchman Nee to Taiwan to insure that “the things delivered to them by the Lord” would not be lost. Watchman Nee instructed Witness Lee to continue the former's publishing operation abroad as the Taiwan Gospel Bookroom, which has been publicly recognized as the publisher of Watchman Nee's works outside China. In 1962, Witness Lee settled in California. Thus, am I the one that married them together?
In reply to:Why do you not think Nee believed in victory, teaching, doctrine and prayer?
Again, this is not what I stated. I stated, He stressed that Christian "victory" is not gained by teaching, doctrine, or prayer, but by just four words of praise.> Do you assert with Nee that you can have victory in the Christian life without teaching, doctrine, or prayer?
In reply to:Do you see the difference between Lee and Nee?
Troy...The truth is Watchman Nee is not charasmatic meaning he is against gibberish.<br><br>averagefellar...first, let me clarify one more time, in saying it has been a while since I have read any Nee. Second, you asked form opinions and I simply gave mine. Charismatics aren't for "gibberish" either. They believe the gifts are for today and simply manifest one in error. However, Nee believed this as well, denying historical theology and clear scripture.<br><br>Troy...He weighs the subjective and the objective perfectly as scripture desires<br><br>averagefellar...scripture stating such please? And does any man do anything perfectly?<br><br>Troy...His IQ far exeeds anyone you have ever met in your life. Apparently he was a genius with an IQ off the charts. He also had an authentic photogenic memory. Over 3000 read books in his library, known for scanning church historyl, was martyred the last 20 years of his life in jail. With all this ability what is most striking is such a pure intuitive conscience of the likes I have never met in another man besides Jesus Christ.<br><br>averagefellar...I was not aware that you knew me so well. Who are you? So, IQ measures truth? Does it measure spirituality as well? Martyrdom measures truth? You met Jesus?<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Reformed in the Calvinistic sense of the term. I have read the 3 volume set called The Spiritual Man many years ago. Do you think The Spiritual Man is an inspired work of the Holy Spirit without error, as the Holy Scripture is? Do you agree with Nee’s own assessment of his own work?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Reformed Calvanistic sense? What does that mean? The Spiritual Man is a top notch work by the Holy Spirit in the man of Watchman Nee. Only the Bible is the Bible. I agree with Nee's own assessment of his work, yes. What's wrong?<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]1. This is a form of baptismal regeneration.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>I am not convinced that armenian baptism is legastically baptismal regeneration, after all read what Watchman Neew writes here: "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3.5). This is the word of our Lord to Nicodemus. <br><br>When Paul wrote to the saints in Rome he inquired, "Are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Paul then continues with these words: "We were buried therefore with him through baptism itno death: that like as Christ was raised from teh dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have b ecome united with him likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6.3-5). Both the Lord Jesus and Paul speak of the reality of baptism.<br><br>But some people look at this matter of baptism from the physical point of view. Their eyes see only the water. Hence they insist on baptismal regeneration. They have not touched spiritual reality. Other people try to approach this question mentally. They maintain that water cannot regenerate people. Accordingly, they explain that with some people baptism is real and inward while with others it is false and outward. The first group can enter into the kingdom of God but those in the second category are excluded. They too have not touched spiritual reality in this matter.<br><br>The baptism of which the Lord told Nicodemus is a reality. Paul also sees reality in baptism: burial with the Lord for newness of life. He told the saints in Colossae, “Having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him” (Col. 2.12). To him baptism and burial are one and the same thing; so too are baptism and resurrection. He knows what it meant to be buried with the Lord and also what is meant by being raised with the Lord. He does not see the water of baptism only, nor does he view some as being truly baptized while some others are not. He communicates to others the reality of that baptism which he has touched.<br><br>Brothers and sisters, if you have seen baptism as a reality you naturally know what it is. The question of its being true or false, inward or outward, simply does not exist, because you see that to be baptized is to be buried and raised up together with Christ. Having seen this reality, can you refrain from proclaiming that baptism is indeed so big, so real, and so inclusive? As soon as a person is shown the reality, then that which is false can no longer exist. Suppose someone should say: “Now that I have been baptized, I hope I may be buried and then raised together with Jesus.” The one who could utter such a statement has not touched reality, since to him baptism is one thing and burial and resurrection are quite another. But that person who perceives spiritual reality knows what burial and resurrection. Baptism is burial, baptism is also resurrection are. They are one and the same thing.<br><br>Do you realize, brothers and sisters, that no one can ever perceive spiritual things with his eyes fixed on the material, that no one can ever think through to the spiritual with his brain? All spiritual matters have their realities. He who has touched reality questions no more.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]He believes in a separate filling of God after salvation, that being the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He did not push the tongues issue as much as many today, but he did push the second blessing issue of this separate baptism against Scripture,(Rom 8:16).</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Not that I am aware of in his writings. He treats Baptism as burial and resurrection. Perhaps you should find a quote. Nee talked about the buildup of the inner life and considered a church that built up based on the gifts as kindergarden church. Watchman Nee also did not believe in gibberish, but he did believe in tongues as languages. He treated baptism of the Holy Spirit much differently than you describe, perhaps you are reading into him? (see above writing of Baptism by Nee). Nee never spoke gibberish but he spoke tongues of chinese and its derivatives and english.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I like to talk to God and not to demons. Eve tried that and it did not work out to well for any of us. But, yes, I believe in Spiritual Warfare. It is a great battle that is fought 24/7 by prayer, proper study, proper discipline... But, as far as seeing a demon around every corner and casting them out in today’s day and time, no that is not spiritual warfare.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Spiritual warfare is not talking to demons. It is casting out, rebuking and refusing ground. sounds like you agree with Watchman Nee and Jessie-Penn Lewis then on the matter of spiritual warfare after all.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Nee believed that ALL the gifts were still available today when Scripture is clear that many have ceased.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Why would you think the gift of wisdom has ceased? Then where would be God's wisdom? Or the gift of knowledge? Who then who had have God's knowledge? Or the gift of languages, then how could we spread the Word to other nations? Why would you think God is giftless? If yhou fulfill His conditions sureless he will bestow gifts here or there, non-legalistically<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Now, I ask you, are we to search the Scriptures with our intuition or a renewed mind (Rom 12:2)? God does not embrace mindless Christianity and mysticism.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Of course are you trying to imply Nee is saying otherwise. I see page 149 is describing the difference between the spirit life and the soul life, that which of the spirit, and that which is of the soul. Do you see how you may have taken this out of context. You said intuition or mind. I say both, pray with the spirit and the mind, but kinow that God's Holy Spirit always works from within intuitively first. Not from the outer man's soul or body. For God is Spirit where he testifies to our spirit and ours to His. Are you able to see how you misread this or should I say Miles, and you are just following the guy. It is interesting to see how people read into to stuff out of context. <br><br>More: paragraph of page 31 is talking about a man who lives soulically without the spirit and it is much better to live by the spirit "walk not according to the flesh" so we can "walk according to the spirit". "spirit wars against the flesh and the flesh wars against the spirit". All that is of the soul if not led by the spirit is soulish. page 74 paragraph talks about the agitated soul's searching but the spirit runs much deeper and can know God's thoughts need not reason them out for their is a deep inner knowing.<br><br>Sounds like Miles and perhaps yourself are reading into things?<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]But, Nee by spiritual intuition, against the Scripture, said we could arrive at a state of perfectionism saying, Whoever genuinely desires to be perfect must let the Cross cut deep into his emotion, (vol 2, p 195), and again, on page 256, when a believer has experienced the practical treatment of the Cross he finally arrives at a pure life. He sums up this false theology by saying, they forget that unless all nerve responses, sensations, actions, conduct, words, food and speech which belong to the body are utterly for the Lord, they can never arrive at perfection (vol 3, p 149).</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Nee is not saying to be perfect for elsewhere he says we can never be perfect for it is a life long process of growth. You should take this as being pefected. Miles misunderstood Nee. I know that when I read that part I did not read it as Miles read it or yourself. Perhaps be careful into reading into things. page 256 is referring to a pure life. He is not saying perfect where there is no more. I know i did read it that when when I first read it nor the 5th time I read it. The question then why would Miles, and perhaps yourself, read into it other than the way it was intended. A pure life is a life as oppossed to an impure life. A pure life is one where greater spiritual stride is being achieved. Do you see? Knowing Nee's vast spirit and intelligence I am sure you recognize Nee is not a man of legalisms as Miles alludes. Same again on page 149. Just know that I never read it the way you read it, so why did you read it incorrectly? Is it because Miles took it wrongly. When we say The Spiritual Man is a perfectionist work, it means as I take it, that it is a highly quality work that is a leading writing today on its subject matter..we should strive for perfection and achieve a perfection..think of perfection as the highest level reached by the most spirtual Christians that ever lived and yet they could have even gone higher..moving right along to the next point..................<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Show me one Scripture where a Christian was possessed by a demon? </font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Possession is defined as by Jessie Penn Lewis as any hold which the evil spirits have in or upon a person in ANY DEGREE. They possess that which holds them. I see lots of my Christian friends under this state, and there are many examples in the Bible. Many examples of men sinning held by such bondage. Do you disagree? Otherwise they would not have sinned so repeatedly especially. <br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Thus, am I the one that married them together?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Yes. You should not blame Watchman Nee for Witness Lee's mistakes, especially if Watchman Nee adamantly would disagree with Witness Lee's approach as the years wore on while Nee was in jail. A man should not be blamed for another man's mistakes.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Again, this is not what I stated. I stated, He stressed that Christian "victory" is not gained by teaching, doctrine, or prayer, but by just four words of praise. Do you assert with Nee that you can have victory in the Christian life without teaching, doctrine, or prayer?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>I thought Witness Lee said this, not Watchman Nee. That is why I say, why do you marry Witness Lee to Watchman Nee.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Very little if any. They both embraced error! </font><hr></blockquote><p><br>While I agree that Lee embraced error, and given my responses above I don't see having erred, so I am not sure how you can either given my responses to deal with your claims. Do you have anything else to offer besides this?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Watchman Nee is against both Charasmatics and gibberish. And of course it would seem strange that we are to forsake the gift of knowledge or any of the others today. Have you read this by Nee? In light of this I wonder why you persists in calling Nee Charasmatic and that he believes in gibberish tongues? Charasmatics are the second wave movement off of the 1st wave movement gibberish Pentecostals all for gibberish.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]averagefellar...I was not aware that you knew me so well. Who are you? So, IQ measures truth? Does it measure spirituality as well? Martyrdom measures truth? You met Jesus?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>It was a combination of it all that made Nee quite a spectacular man. Men men of his grand intelligence get heady but he never did. I met Jesus, by His Holy Spirit dwelling in my spirit. Nee was martyred last 20 years of your life. Spirituality is measured by the Spirit in our willing cooperation and strengthened spirit.<br><br><hr width="85%"><br>[color:red]Edited:</font color=red> This section was cut due to its undue length. It is preferred that you provide a link to a website where such lengthy articles can be read. - Pilgrim<br><br><hr width="85%"><br>What is the reason for such appalling shallowness and poverty these days? Because the ministers have experienced so little themselves. They have managed to dodge the cross whenever God offered it to them or appointed it for them. There is very often a way out, another way that is less costly, a lower path and not the way of the cross. How few and rare are those who are truly rich spiritually. And why? Because their sufferings have not abounded.<br><br>God arranges most perfectly. He knows what kind of sufferings each one needs-whether it be physical, material, mental, or spiritual. When God in His wisdom brings it to us because He sees that we need it, let us rejoice and see the Lord in it. Let us accept it with joy, acknowledging that we are absolutely equal to it. He indeed is, and in the circumstance we do find Him in His fullness and sufficiency. We come to really know God because we find Him doing in us and for us what we cannot do. Thus are we able to minister Him in life to others, to build up the body, to scatter life-His life-wherever we go. Whenever death is really working in us, just then and only then can life really flow out to others.<br>
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I hope this doesn't sound offensive, but I thought your post contained too much boasting. If have misunderstood them, please let me know. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Just giving the facts, and to help those examine whom they are trying to find fault in whom might actually running circles around them, who may be making reading errors which could be construed as boastful in their claims in their own right if they are wrong which would seem to be the case.<br><br>I say this because I look and at each side of the story and it appears we are seeing misreadings.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Just giving the facts, and to help those examine whom they are trying to find fault in whom might actually running circles around them, who may be making reading errors which could be construed as boastful in their claims in their own right if they are wrong which would seem to be the case.<br><br>I say this because I look and at each side of the story and it appears we are seeing misreadings. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Be as it may. Then, Please kindly answer my first set of questions and explain the statement about "His IQ far exeeds anyone you have ever met in your life". Have you personally gone around and performed an IQ test of everyone and then discovered whom william (Averagefeller) has known and not known? <br><br>Carlos
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
