The Highway Forums General Discussion ExCharisma More, more, more!

In the aftermath of ExCharisma's recent, ahem, burst of activity, my thoughts have turned back to my former charismatic days. Frankly, I don't miss those days one bit. I remember all too well the spiritual ups and downs. Sure, the ups could be plenty exciting--a healing, a dream, a prophecy, etc.--but in between the ups I had to contend with constant cravings for more of God. It seemed that no matter how much I got, the more I wanted!

Since leaving charismaticism, how liberating it has been to learn that I don't need anything more than what God gave me in Christ. Why, I have forgiveness of sins, eternal life, adoption into God's family, the indwelling Holy Spirit, and much, much more! Oh, there's some parts of this wonderful package that I can't open yet, such as a glorified body that knows neither sickness nor pain, but everything that's not mine now will be mine some day. What good thing could God possibly add to what He's already given me?

How foolish, then, this charismatic craving after more, more, more! With all due respect, my charismatic friends, we have no interest in any more of God than we already have. To be sure, we wish to better know Christ through the Scriptures, and we wish to gain greater victory over remaining sin, etc., but what are such blessings but the further revealing of what we already possess in Christ?

So, away with your so-called "second blessing"! Away with your "still small voice"! We have Christ, and in Him we have all things, so we have no need for your trifles.

Complete in Him,
Dave

We had an old thread on the ExCharisma group about religious addiction. Some of the best stuff I read in that thread was written by Dave. I still have it archived, and Dave, if you will grant permision to have it re-posted here, I think it would make an awesome contribution not only to this thread, but to everyone who reads it.

-Robin

By all means, please go ahead and post it here. I think that discussion took place quite a while ago, so there may be folks here who have never seen it.

To this day I tend to compare charismaticism with drug addiction. In both situations, there are "highs"--feelings of peace and joy--but in between there can be the most wrenching sense of craving and lack. That's not how the Christian life ought to be. To be sure, the Christian pilgrimage features sloughs of despond amongst the delectable mountains, and the believer does often find himself panting after a closer walk with God, but whereas the charismatic gets his "high" from the emotional euphoria of his experiences, the Bible-centered believer derives peace and joy from knowing God through Christ. Granted, the charismatic will attribute his highs to God, but make no mistake: it is the emotions he's really after. What a far cry this is from the joy amidst sorrow and the peace in the storm that God has in mind for His Elect! Of course the believer will often feel strong emotions as he walks with Christ, both pleasant and not-so-pleasant, but unlike the addict to emotional euphoria, he is not ruled by his emotions. To the contrary: he strives to make Christ ruler of every aspect of his being up to and including his emotions. Thus, the believer who walks in the light of Scripture alone enjoys a peace, joy, and contentment far beyond that of his brother who vainly, desperately seeks to recapture the emotional highs of charismatic experience.

Dave

Thank you for your joyous and edifying post.


I suggest that this craving for more and more extra-scriptural revelation by the Charismatics is nothing more than unbelief in the Lord and the words of Scripture in the first place. Jesus met this same unbelief and demand for "signs" with these words.


Jesus does not give them the sign they demand but refers them to the Gospel and to the Scripture!

I also suggest that the Charismatics are one and the same as the rebellious Israelites wandering in the desert, for whom the pure manna from heaven was not good enough. [Numbers 11:4-6]

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Moreover, the charismatic's continual quest for greater emotional experiences is really no different than what we see in the broader society. Think of how men turn to not only drugs but also entertainment in order to stimulate their emotions in one direction or another. To this the charismatic may say, "Yes, non-Christians do seek after transcendent experiences in many ways that seem to resemble our way, but think of counterfeit money: no one would be fooled by it unless it bore a resemblance to something of real value. Likewise, the effects of drugs, alcohol, etc., are a counterfeit of the benefits I enjoy from the Holy Spirit." As a charismatic I found this type of argument to be convincing, but is it really?

Are you so certain, Mr. Charismatic, that the experiences which you attribute to the Holy Spirit are so different than Mr. Worldly Man's experiences? I'm sure you will find a Bible text here or there to "confirm" your experiences, but please ask yourself whether those experiences have truly brought you closer to Christ and the Scriptures or whether they have merely intensified your thirst for more experiences. If your zeal to convince non-charismatics to "receive the baptism" is greater than your zeal to win sinners to Christ, could it be that your love of emotional highs is greater than your love for Christ? Moreover, we ought to be very careful before we attribute emotional highs to the Holy Spirit. Bear in mind that the Holy Spirit is God of very God, so to attribute works to Him that He has not performed is to take His name in vain at the very least! The same danger attends us when we claim that "God told me" this or that when in fact God had said no such thing.

Mr. Charismatic, search the Scriptures, and see how God has dealt with His Elect throughout history. Whenever He spoke to His people, He did so in a way that made it clear beyond any reasonable doubt that God Himself had spoken. Whenever He performed great and wonderful works, His people were driven not to seek after more signs and wonders; instead, they exhibited a greater inclination to fear God and obey His Word.

To this Mr. Charismatic may say, "But I've experienced such peace and joy since I received the baptism!" So did Mr. Drug Addict when he first sampled the narcotic that now ensnares him, and so did Mr. Baseball Nut when his team won the World Series. The fact is that men can experience wonderful emotions for all sorts of less-than-transcendant reasons. If your emotional experiences have truly drawn you closer to Christ alone and the Scriptures alone, I rejoice with you, but if your spiritual life is typified by a continual craving for more and greater experiences, and your zeal is spent on persuading others to take on such a craving for themselves, I pity you for your spiritual poverty.

The Holy Spirit isn't in the business of hooking spiritual addicts on Himself. Quite the contrary: His business is to draw sinners to Christ.

Dave

My joy was never full. It was always tempered by the knowledge that I constantly had to produce works in order to maintain it If I did not epxerience the rapturous highs often enough, I engaged in self-condemnation, frantically searching for the hidden sin, corruption, or lack in my life that was causing it. It was no way for a Christian to live. Thank the Lord he brought me out of it. In spite of the very high cost I paid, I still consider it well worth the price.

From the ancient archives of ExCharisma:



People who have been addicted to drugs describe their experience in terms that seem to compare quite strikingly with Pentecostalism. And the description of them is totally opposite of what a relationship with Jesus is really like:

When a person is using drugs recreationally for the very first time, he only needs a small dose of the drug to get the “high” he seeks. But as he becomes addicted, it takes greater and greater dosages of the stuff to achieve the same high he got in the beginning with only a small dose. A drug addict must get more and more of the drug each time; and he finds at a certain point that he's no longer taking the drug to make him feel good, but to keep from feeling bad! A biblical relationship with Christ is a completely different experience. Subscribers to the ExCharisna e-group describe their own experience below in exploring this concept of “religious addiction.”

Robin

First please understand that I despise, detest, abhor, hate, and vehemently oppose any comparison of Christ with drugs in the form of the old Jesus-People theme, "Try Jesus, He'll make you high, man!" But for purposes of contrasting religious addiction to real Christian discipleship, I must use this analogy. My first "dose" of Jesus - my initial encounter with Him when I was reborn and His Spirit came to dwell within my heart - was a big, huge "dose" of Him. The biggest, most radical "dose" of Jesus I ever had was the day He found me and changed my heart. Today, the tiniest little peek at His face is all it takes to make my heart sing with the same joy and abandon it did on the day I was converted. Just a few minutes in His word and I'm "high" on the wonder of His grace and glory. It takes only the tiniest "dose" of Him from His word, or from the Lord's Supper, or a sermon, etc to send my soul into orbit, worshipping Him with the same abandon and delight I felt as a child, when I received that first huge, mega-"dose." It's the opposite of addiction because the slightest "dose" is as effective as the first "big dose," and I don't find myself running to Him to keep from feeling bad, but to thank Him for His goodness and mercy to a sinner like me.

Now compare "the Charismatic experience" with both of the descriptions above. Your first "dose" of "the supernatural power of the Spirit" may have been like mine, either scary or joyous, but soul-thrilling nevertheless. A whole new world had just opened up and you were on the threshold of this fantastic invisible realm to explore, with potential for greater and greater things. Praying in tongues became a "merit badge" for Advanced Christianity which I wore quite proudly, but only for a short time. Because pretty soon it took a lot more than just tongues-speaking to make me feel "in tune with God" and "in the center of His will." Before long I was pursuing more and more "deeper-life" experiences, exploring and experimenting with "greater gifts" and secret, intuitive knowledge, and false "intimacy with God" - all apart from the simplest disciplines of the Christian faith (bible study, biblical prayer, stewardship, fellowship, and service). With a few years of my first "dose" of "Holy Ghost power," I found that I was seeking more and more of Him in order to keep myself from feeling bad rather than for the benefit of others or even to please God. I had become addicted to religion. And when God delivered me from it I went through withdrawal pangs every bit as real and as painful as those experienced by chemical addicts when the drug is withdrawn.

Look at TBN now and observe how big the "dosages" have become for those addicted to Pentecostalism for many years. It went from speaking in tongues to "singing in the Spirit," and from there to "falling under the power," and from there to "holy laughter," and now the "doses" are huge! Examples of this run the gamut from "gold dust" and Divine Dentistry to Benny Hinn's predictions of "greater things to come," such as the dead being raised merely by sitting their bodies in front of a television and tuning it to TBN. Greater and greater "experiences," bigger and bolder predictions, higher and higher emotion, more and more hype.

But full hospitals and empty bank accounts (unless you're a televangelist) persist in churches full of religious addicts who believe what they want to believe because it keeps them from feeling bad about their true situation, spiritually, morally, physically, medically, financially, etc. During my years as a Charismatic, I helped to spread a message which I knew deep down was not even effective in my own life. I assumed that something was wrong with me, not the message, so I continued to recruit and seduce others into religious addiction. I became a "drug dealer" of sorts, resorting even to trickery and manipulation without shame because it was "for the cause of Christ."

And like most addicts, it took a series of tragedies and losses to bring me to a point of honesty and acceptance of reality. And once freed from my religious addiction, I re-discovered the innocence and joy and purity and stability of an honest relationship with my Lord, strengthened by the simple disciplines of bible study, prayer, stewardship, fellowship, and service.


Kathi

This is too true! I, too, can't stand the comparisons of a relationship with Jesus to "high on Jesus" & I've never experienced a drug addiction. But I agree with what you've written. And I see two other parallels between addictions & religion: First, it totally appeals to the flesh, and second, it creates a "reality" that isn't reality at all. My brother was a cocaine addict before coming to the Lord. My husband discipled him the first year while he lived in our home. He said he loved the way he felt on drugs because it covered how really bad he felt about himself and he didn't have to deal with who he really was (new "reality"). And when he was high on drugs, his personality changed. He had an unnatural boldness and confidence, and he would act like he was someone important (appeal to the flesh.) Charismatic "religion" does exactly the same thing - appeals to the flesh by making us think we've got something really important, and it changes reality so we don't have to deal with situations & with who we really are before a Holy God.

Also, I've heard that its no fun to be around people using drugs unless you're using them yourself. Otherwise, you just won't fit in - especially since you're back in the real "reality." I've seen the same thing at church. I remember once, an elder in the church started praying really loudly - actually yelling and crying. (He learned this from watching Carter Conlon on a video.) Within 2 weeks, whole groups were praying that way - yelling and crying and wailing all over the church. Now in reality, it was very uncomfortable to walk into a church where groups of people were yelling. But people began to do it just so they could fit in, because, after all, if you didn't pray that way, you obviously didn't pray with any anointing. And who wanted to get caught looking like they didn't have any anointing! So the whole "culture" of prayer changed in the church Suddenly what was actually ridiculous (is God hard of hearing?) became the normal way to pray in that church. And us "normal" people who just didn't buy it - well, we didn't fit in. Sigh.......such foolishness.

Dave

This explains why the PentaMatic movement is so popular among ex-addicts. I do not mean it out of contempt for those who have drug addictions, but I mean it as a condemnation of the American evangelical tactics used since the 1800's (Iain Murray documents the frontier revivals under the Methodists with all sorts of ecstatic and emotional extremes). It has now evolved into a substitution for chemically induced emotional high, a new form of escapism. Combined with our sinful desire to ascend into God's presence, we have a paganism disguised as the gospel.

Revivalism and marketing have come together to "market" Jesus. Dr Michael Horton refers to it as the consumer orientation of the church. At my Pentecostal church, we used to love hearing a gospel tune, "when you've tried everything and everything's failed, try Jesus".

At the same church a musician (trumpet player) talked about a better high through Christ, his ecstatic experiences through the Holy Ghost, referring to God as the "Most High" (NOTE: by agreeing with this, we were violating the 3rd Commandment by taking His name in vain). Carmen, a famous performer on TBN and a Word Faith proponent, had a best-selling album with DC Talk, "Addicted to Jesus" (as well as another best-seller," Who's in the House, it’s JC"). Not one DJ or CCM Video host even questioned the absurd, blasphemous concepts of this "superstar".

The need for greater stimulation and ecstatic experiences continues. The discernment.org site details the parallels with occultic behavior, which often utilizes chemicals (ie, peyote).

Often , court-mandated probation includes supervision of a religious halfway house and affiliated church for a fixed term. The legalism and the disillusionment of the "religious high" took its toll, with some going back to jail for leaving, and others living a secret life of deception and criminal activity.

As we know, it is dangerous, deceptive and leads to abuse. God is gracious enough to deliver us, and we will continue to pray for those who are caught in this.



Mary


Always looking for that next spiritual high, to be in the worship service of all worship services. Then to hit reality during the week that I was still the jerk I was before going to the last service. Some of that is changing now, I'm not quite a jerk as I was before. I am no longer waiting for that word of knowledge, word of wisdom or prophetic unction to speak. I am no longer watching for the way the Holy Spirit is going to manifest Himself to the congregation. I am no longer fighting powers, principalities, demons, evil spirits, rulers of darkness in order to make a way for people and God to be in each others presence. I am no longer wondering what is the prophetic theme for the service. Such as what color to wear, what color of ribbons to put on a tambourine, what color banners to bring along.

My life has gotten a little simpler and more intense for the truth of the bible. I now dress out of respect for the Lord on Sundays. The tambourine is in the hands of another person who had a cute picture of a lamb painted on it. The banners are being waved by someone else. And the only thing I wonder about on Sundays is do I have enough notepad paper and ink in my pen.

I remember prayer meetings where everyone was walking the floor, yelling at Satan, and yelling at God at the same time. Then coming together at the end to hold hands and thank God in a very humble manner. I never could figure out the purpose for the yelling and moaning and walking fast. So when I was asked to take over the prayer meeting by the Pastor I slowly brought the people back to a place of sitting and listening to one another's prayers so there could be agreement and understanding. Because how were we able to thank God for His wonderful deeds if we could not hear what the petitions and supplications were. After 7 years of leading Saturday night prayer I closed the meeting for reasons I mentioned to the Pastor. The next time there was a corporate prayer meeting the instructions were given to pray whichever way you were "lead" by the Spirit to pray. I finally figured that God and the devil must be deaf because people went back to yelling at them. And I sat in the midst of two lanes of traffic of people walking past me. I don't know, I must not have been in tune with the Spirit that evening.

I not only observed these things when I was there, but I participated in them with all my heart. I was a good leader and follower in all the Charismatic and Third Wave Movement. It goes along with being addicted to something and my addiction happened to be to the supernatural and being "a part of ". When I was going through a real dark time before leaving that church, I drew a picture of my heart how it seemed to be at that time to me. I came face to face with sin. As Kathi mentioned, a person using drugs or other forms of addiction uses them to alter reality. I had been able to use the teachings of Hagin, Copeland, Meyers, Joyner, Deere, etc. to alter the reality of life. There was a sense of control, power and even excitement I hadn't had for a long time. But the more I practiced the techniques taught by these people and others, the deeper I got into confusion.

It had gotten so bad I thought I was developing multiple personalities, or at least a form of the disorder. Because the teachings were not measuring up to the reality I was actually experiencing. I had prayed for people’s healing, laid hands on them, bound, rebuked and commanded the sickness to leave, and they all DIED. The windfall of prosperity was not a part of my life. Participated in a “deliverance” with the Pastor and saw no deliverance take place. “Calling those things that be not as though they were” wasn’t occurring either. I could not understand why the word of God was not working for me. I was supposed to be able to heal, deliver and set people free "in the name of Jesus" but it wasn’t happening. That was thing, then there was “the prophetic.” We all can prophesy, I was told. So I set out to develop this. Many around me said I was prophetic, yet I was not seeing the angels in the service, nor the gold dust on a persons hand, nor the glory cloud moving in front of the church; I was not dreaming dreams or having visions. I was being told I was a part of “the prophetic,” yet reality was telling me something different. My mind was getting split into two realms, trying hard with spiritual reasoning to stay connected and be a part of the move of God and two dealing with doubt, condemnation and rejection.

God our heavenly Father in His great wisdom saw it necessary for me to go through all this. My mind has since settled down after leaving that church and being with other Christians who have stayed with the study of the written word of God. The Lord has taken me to a place of safety where I can mend and grow strong. Part of the mending has been to write as I have openly with out the fear of criticism. Thank you all for your support.


How About You?


The “Charismatic experience” hooked us in a way that was not liberating and empowering like it promised to be. Instead the pursuit of higher and higher “experiences in the Spirit” became an addiction for us, enslaving our emotions, turning us into great actors and poor liars, and all too often, just like chemical addicts, it takes real-life tragedies to make us even aware of what we have become. Reality was re-defined, normal God-given perception and reason were perverted to support our quest for “more, Lord… more!” This bondage can be broken, just as Jesus said, by the application of God’s word. “You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free,” He said. And it is the never-changing word of God found in the never-changing Scriptures alone that can be the foundation upon which we build our lives (Eph 2:20), not the constantly-changing, ever-elusive and never-certain “winds” of Pentecostalism. Those of us who have fled to Jesus from the uncertainty and confusion and fear of our addiction to Pentecostalism urge you to come back with us to “the faith once delivered,” the sure, certain, confident quiet assurance one can find only in the Scriptures, enlightened by God’s Holy Spirit.