The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Holy Hip-Hop?

Just curious how people feel about "holy" hip-hop, or hip-hop with "God-glorifying" lyrics. Are lyrics all that matter? Many have cited John Frame in defence of holy hip-hop; but in Contemporary Worship Music: A Biblical Defense he says: "This is not to say that every popular style with Christian words is suitable for worship. Some musical groups such as Stryper have set Christian words to heavy metal music. That may be a good evangelistic tool; it remains to be seen what God's Spirit will do with it. But in my judgment, the heavy metal style, even with Christian words, at the present time still conveys to most of us the worst in the modern rock concert scene. I cannot hear this style of music, even performed by Christians, without being harassed by emotions of anger, contempt for others, justifications for drugs, violence, perverted sex, and other forms of rebellion against God" (58). While I agree with his sentiments, this seems like a totally subjective argument. What do people here think?

http://valueofthekingdom.blogspot.com/2007/01/curtis-voice-allen-and-holy-hip-hop-in.html

http://www.theambassadoronline.com/

http://www.exministries.com/main.html


O Lord and Master of my life
take from me the spirit of sloth
faint-heartedness,
lust of power
and idle talk.
But give rather the spirit of chastity,
humility,
patience,
and love to thy servant.
Yea, O Lord and King
grant me to see my own errors
and not to judge my brother;
for Thou art blessed unto the ages of ages.
Amen.

-- St. Ephraim the Syrian

Brad,

My first reaction is... boy,oh boy, how far we've moved from singing Psalms only. I agree with the comments you've quoted: "I cannot hear this style of music, even performed by Christians, without being harassed by emotions of anger, contempt for others, justifications for drugs, violence, perverted sex, and other forms of rebellion against God" Somehow I can't see how singing Amazing Grace to hip hop could be very edifying or God glorifying. Surely the music matters too and not just the words. However, over the years we have embraced music that has been drawn from secular tunes.


Evaluating Music Intended for Christian Worship

Worship in the Melting Pot

Pleasing God in our Worship

Although we have progressed in a positive way over the years with many hymns with words that teach us good theology and give us reasons to praise the Lord I don't think hip hop, rap, or rock can accomplish that. One must ask have we tried so hard to reach this generation that we have lost our focus on what's glorifying to God. I may be old fashioned in many ways but I believe sacred music is important and should be sung in reverence to a holy God. When I hear a Christian rock group performing it doesn't seem to achieve the above goals. It may be emotive and lively but does it appeal to the flesh or the spirit?

Wes

I can remember asking our Mother to sing the 'church words' to 'Its Now Or Never' in the car on the way to Sunday School in Pacific Grove. Such was the extent of our musical history.
Personally I would love a good Scritptually sound set of lyrics set to the tune of All along The Watchtower.


On the one hand I agree with you and Wes. On the other I think we are paying a price for many years of catereing to the littlest oldest lady in the congragation.

Grandma should have a special place in chrisitan gatherings so long as they continue to exist, but no organization can thive without the involvment of young men.

Hitch

I'm personally opposed to ANY "hip-hop", "rock & roll" or any other contemporary-type music, whether it is for use in corporate worship or personal listening. See the following articles and more found here: Ecclesiology - The Doctrine of the Church

Music
A Reason to Sing - Dr. P.J. Janson
Congregational Singing and the Ministry of the Word - Leonard Payton
Is it a Prelude or a Quaalude - Leonard Payton
Glossary of Church Growth & Contemporary Christian Music - Leonard Payton
Evangelicals on the Durham Trail - Darryl Hart
Evaluating Music for Christian Worship and Enjoyment - Leonard J. Seidel
Rock 'n' Roll, the Bible, and the Mind - Tom Allen

Worship
Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats? - Charles H. Spurgeon
No Compromise - Charles H. Spurgeon
Church-o-Rama or Corporate Worship
Pleasing God in Our Worship - Dr. Robert Godfrey

Re: John Frame's views on worship see here: Review of [i]Worship in Spirit and Truth[/i]

I have also recently posted a question music in church. What Wes is saying about using secular tunes is certainly true, but I feel it should not be the norm. My view is that since the Church is the body of Christ, the regenerated humankind, music for use in church should be produced from within the community of believers. God certainly also gave the gifts of producing God glorifying music to his children.
From this point of view I am really skeptical that all styles of secular music can be "christianized".

Johan

Although I enjoy many styles of music for secular listening, I would argue that the music that we use in the worship of God ought to be distinct from that which we use for pleasure. We ought always remember that an important aspect of God's holiness is his otherness. Although it is true that we are made in his image, he is far greater than us in every respect! Would we dress, speak, or behave the same way to meet an earthly king as we do when we are relaxing around our homes with our families? Of course not! How much more then should the music we use in our worship of the King of Kings, whether for private, family, or public worship, be separate and distinct from the music we enjoy for personal pleasure!

Dave

And that begs the question as to how much of a distinction should there be between how we worship God formally and how we live before God (our reasonable worship, Heb. 12:1, 2). Should the "elements" of our everyday lives be contrary to that which we use in formal worship, e.g., speaking, listening, etc.? Doubtless, the subject has been debated for centuries, i.e., "Sacred vs. Secular". But I have to question (not referring to you specifically Dave since I have no knowledge of what kind of music you allow yourself to listen to) the allowing of most of the worldly music by those who profess faith in Christ and seek His kingdom in righteousness. For example, is it acceptable or even possible to listen to pagan "head-banging" music Monday-Saturday and in one's quiet time approach God where choirs of angels sing music that extols His majesty and holiness with these tunes still floating around in one's brain?

How should a Christian apply the wise Apostle John's admonition:

1 John 2:14-17 (ASV) "I have written unto you, fathers, because ye know him who is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the evil one. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

In His grace,

I tried to make the same point about religious movies from Tozer's article about the "imaging" of God's Word and words in Scripture. The fact is that modern music is pronounced and unavoidable in nearly all Hollywood movies. This is true also for much of television. Some here have said that this was "Adiaphora" and a possible assault on Christian liberty.

I'm sorry but I can't seem to be able to distinguish the difference between these three categories of movies, television and secular music for private amusement and enjoyment? Why should properly discerned secular music for private listening be condemned as unchristian and the rest remain "things indifferent"? Might there be personal prejudices involved here? I know that I am prejudice, as I personally see a much greater threat to Christians and the Christian witness in movies such as "The Passion of the Christ" or "Jesus of Nazareth" than I do in just about ANY music.

As for "Holy Hip-Hop", I'd rather take a beating than listen to a single bar or word.

Denny

Romans 3:2-24

That's an excellent question.

There is no doubt that a Christian is prohibited from loving the present world or the things that are in it. One cannot obey the command to wholeheartedly love God while loving the depraved world system through which we are presently sojourning.

But yet God, in his mercy, gives us good things to enjoy with thanksgiving so long as we do not cause ourselves or others to stumble in their enjoyment. He prohibits drunkenness, but leaves us free to enjoy wine, etc., in moderation. He prohibits gluttony, but grants us in Christ the privilege of eating food of all kinds. In the matter of Christian liberty, God presents us with the freedom to enjoy earthly things so long as we hold them with a loose grip lest we come to love them inordinately.

FYI, my musical tastes are doggedly "retro": 99% of what I like was either composed or recorded before my birth forty-something years ago. Although the secular music of these former days, like the Hollywood movies of the 30's and 40's, isn't entirely free of sexual innuendo and romantic idolatry, it tends to reflect the greater degree of common grace that was present in the culture of former generations. So long as I enjoy this music in moderate doses, I find that it doesn't present an undue hindrance to my walk with Christ. It helps that I'm mature enough to discern good from bad with a reasonable degree of success, something that young people who listen to today's latest sounds just aren't equipped to do. Although I am quite sympathetic to those who are appalled by today's secular music (with limited exceptions, I find the best of it to be a lifeless recycling of better music from the past, with the worst of it being unspeakably awful in every sense: spiritual, moral, and artistic), I have not yet been persuaded by Scripture or reason that I must lay aside all enjoyment of secular music. To be sure, it is good and right to lay aside any liberty should it become a hindrance to running the Christian race.

Although I will defend the wise and moderate use of secular music for personal enjoyment within the bounds of Christian liberty, I am nonetheless a staunch advocate of the regulative principle of worship. Whereas God has granted us a degree of liberty regarding how we live our everyday lives, he has left us far less latitude regarding how he is to be worshiped. I believe that many evangelicals have been overly strict regarding Christian liberty, but overly liberal regarding the worship of God.

Although we ought to defend ourselves against any attempt to bind our consciences to anything besides the Word of God, that battle is a small thing compared to the crucial matter of the right worship of Almighty God. If I am made to choose between my liberty vs. obedience to Scripture, I must of course choose the latter! Although God has left me free to enjoy many things in Christ, he would not have me to love any thing besides Christ. To do otherwise would be to commit idolatry.

Dave

Very good discussion so far! I find myself particularly in agreement with everything that Dave U and Johan have said so far. Apart from the issue of the legitimacy of drawing a strong distinction between the music we listen to for "pleasure" and the music we use in our worship (private or corporate), I do find the claim that the music with which the church worships should emerge from the church unassailable. Of course, I now belong to a church whose worship is entirely liturgical, so I don’t really need convincing on that point.

I suppose what I would like to explore a little more deeply is the claim of some holy hip-hop supporters and artists (such as William Branch), that holy hip-hop has emerged from the church -- from the Christian hip-hop church community. It is their “indigenous” music. Just as our church music (I’m especially thinking of the music and not the lyrics) reflects and bears the stamp of the cultures from which our churches have emerged, their music reflects and bears the stamp of the culture they have come from and still belong to. Once they’ve thrown out all the dirty, degrading, worldly lyrics and replaced them with pious ones, what else do they need to do? Are certain rhythms, sounds, and melodies intrinsically ungodly? My gut says Yes! But, not being a musicologist, I don’t have a clue how to articulate my misgivings. Also, maybe my musical intuitions and tastes are just too "white." Is there anything ungodly or sinful about “sampling” or “scratching” or “rapping” in themselves? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/peace.gif" alt="" />

When missionaries go to foreign mission fields, do they or should they allow local, indigenous musicians to write new settings for old songs, or perhaps even compose or write their own? Or is the (white - Western) music the missionaries bring with them the only thing permitted? And if so, for how long? What if indigenous children or teenagers start singing songs about Jesus in the style of other songs they know, should this be discouraged? How or why is the inner-city African American community or culture any different? Certainly it and the people in it need to be redeemed; but what does redemption look like when it comes to music? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />




O Lord and Master of my life
take from me the spirit of sloth
faint-heartedness,
lust of power
and idle talk.
But give rather the spirit of chastity,
humility,
patience,
and love to thy servant.
Yea, O Lord and King
grant me to see my own errors
and not to judge my brother;
for Thou art blessed unto the ages of ages.
Amen.

-- St. Ephraim the Syrian

Brad,

First off let me state my over-used example to illustrate the erroneous type of argument used by many to justify their view that all music is to be deemed Adiaphora:

God created music,
Therefore music is good.
Rock & Roll (add your favorite genre here) is music,
Therefore Rock & Roll is good.

Need I state the obvious error in this illogical syllogism? Often I must and I do so by simply substituting something which is nearly universally agreed upon as being sinful.

God created sex,
Therefore sex is good.
Homosexuality is sex,
Therefore homosexuality is good.

The problem with the argument above re: music is that it should read,

God created music,
Therefore music is good.
God created Rock & Roll (add your favorite genre here),
Therefore, Rock & Roll is good.

The fact is, however, that God did not create Rock & Roll, Rap, Hip-Hop, Jazz, Heavy Metal, Classical or any other type of music. All are the product of human design. And knowing that all men are sinners by nature, everything created, invented, produced by man must be scrutinized carefully under the light of Scripture, either by its direct commands or by way of its principles. The articles I have provided in my reply above should be a good starting place in helping to examine musical forms which are to "glorify" God.

Now.... again I have written this many times over here and elsewhere. Simply put, to "glorify" God is to faithfully reflect His nature and attributes as found in His self-disclosure, i.e., the Bible. Thus music must be analogous to God Himself and in accord with His revealed will given to us. Does Rap mirror the nature and/or attributes of God? Does Rap et al forms of music produce within us an attitude of self-denial or does it appeal to our base emotive element?

My personal conclusion has been for years that ANY type of music which is based upon a syncopated beat is unacceptable from the get-go. If I had to equate this type of music with something else I would have to say it is in the same category as the current "boost your self-esteem" fad. The bottom line is that this type of music is self-ingratiating; it feeds the raw emotions.

Okay... enough for now and I'm sure that the above will enrage some, especially those who are addicted, yes addicted, to pop music because in truth, because of my assessment of it by its very nature it is like a drug; it seizes and controls you. (cf. 1Cor 6:12; Col 3:1ff; 1Pet 4:1-5; et al)

In His grace,

Sounds like a good thing to do. I certainly would not say that our western style music is what has to be enforced by missionaries. What about many missionaries from non-Western countries that are now working in Western Europe?

For a number of years we had a quite a number of Korean members in our congregation and I know that they had their own music. But, it is also true that for some of them the traditional Western hymns were special. They adopted it. Making contact with the reformed churches in Korea might already help a lot in trying to get an answer.

I also have some sort of barrier to feel comfortable with bringing into the worship service music that has a strong secular connection. Maybe it is the tradition that I grew up in that gives me this bias. On the other hand, although my tradition is Dutch reformed, I never had a problem with the English counterpart. And when we stayed in Las Cruces for seven months and were part of the University Prebyterian Church (PCA) I also learned to appreciate the contemporary music they used. Although it was totally new for me I never felt uneasy as eg is the case with what people call christian rock. One thing that keeps coming back to me time and again is that the words of the psalms that we sing as well as of the traditional English hymns has a depth that I don't find in most of the contemporary gospel songs. Take for example the hymn "Great is Thy faithfulness" which most of you know:

Great is Thy faithfulness, O God my Father;
There is no shadow of turning with Thee;
Thou changest not, Thy compassions, they fail not;
As Thou hast been, Thou forever will be.

Refrain

Great is Thy faithfulness!
Great is Thy faithfulness!
Morning by morning new mercies I see.
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided;
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me!

Summer and winter and springtime and harvest,
Sun, moon and stars in their courses above
Join with all nature in manifold witness
To Thy great faithfulness, mercy and love.

Refrain

Pardon for sin and a peace that endureth
Thine own dear presence to cheer and to guide;
Strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow,
Blessings all mine, with ten thousand beside!

What Pilgrim says is exactly my view as well.

Johan

Rap has no positive value whatsoever, and above all modern popular music is the absolute worst form (IMO, only "death metal" may perhaps be worse). This type of music by its very nature glorifies the bestiality of fallen humanity, and it is unbelievably incongruous to pair it with biblical lyrics.

Some people also think money is evil , but the facts of the matter is how people use it.The same principle can be said about Rap or hip hop music and styles.
If it is used in the Glory to God , how can it be from satan.