The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum People in high places selling out by the score...

One question I have, with respect to the The ETS statement of faith is: Do Catholics deny that the Bible, even "the Bible alone" "is the Word of God written"? My understanding, which is probably flawed, is that while the Roman Catholic Church considers Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium (the teaching office of the Church), and the Bible to be authoritative sources of divine revelation, the term "Word of God" is reserved for Christ and the Bible.

Here is the ETS statement of faith in full:

"The Bible alone, and the Bible in its entirety, is the Word of God written and is therefore inerrant in the autographs. God is a Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each an uncreated person, one in essence, equal in power and glory."

According to Roger Nicole, the statement was drawn up in this way to exclude Roman Catholics. I'm curious to know if it is adequate to do this. If it said something more like, "the Bible is the only source of infallible authority or special revelation" I could see it. As it stands, I don't know that Beckwith was necessarily acting in bad faith by remaining president, even after his conversion, though he certainly knows that the "spirit" of the statement and the organization is to exclude Catholics (unless their last name rhymes with eisler) <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />. Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this unfolds, and how and if Beckwith defends his right to remain president.

The "moderate" CBF bigots down at Baylor will probably try again to have him fired, since they don't want nobody but "free and faithful" "open-minded" Darwin loving Baptist pietists teaching their kiddies.

http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=22949

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/baker200501101423.asp

http://www3.baylor.edu/~Ralph_Wood/misc/ReapingWhirlwindBaylor.pdf

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=532

I forget where I saw it, but there was a Catholic who blogged that he would have no trouble agreeing to the statement. This is how he explained it:

"The Bible alone, and the Bible in its entirety, is the Word of God written"

Only the Bible is the written Word of God. Not the Koran, not the Book of Mormon, not the Veda. But it doesn't say anything against the non-written (oral) tradition! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" /> (where'd the nuts smiley go?)

Just wondering.

Is it possible to say the Bible is inerrant and still believe that many of the OT accounts are allegories, not historical accounts?

And, I wonder what is meant by 'The Bible alone, an its entirety' Is that in reference to the apocryphacal books?

I understand that the apocrapha was added to their canon at the Council of Trent in 1511as being Scripture. The papal decrees are regarded as the word of God as he is the chief interpreter. This is sad but not all who profess to be sheep are truly sheep.
Patrice

If the ETS was guided by historic Protestant confessions of faith on this point (and I believe that it was), then the reference would not be to the Apocryphal books, but only to the 66 books of the Protestant canon. While the RCC accepts all of those books as inspired and canonical, at the Council of Trent it "infallibly" pronounced the eleven books of the Apocrypha canonical Scripture, and therefore, the Word of God. Further, it declared: "If anyone, however, should not accept the said books as sacred and canonical, entire with all their parts...and if both knowingly and deliberately he should condemn the aforesaid tradition let him be anathema." In light of this, if the ETS doesn't ask Beckwith to resign, then the RCC should.

Yes, the Apocrypha was declared Sacred Scripture, and thus, the Word of God at the Council of Trent in 1546.

As for the papal decrees, they are regarded as inspired, infallible, and authoritative; but, I don't think they are ever referred to as the Word of God. I may be wrong, and this may seem like a minor or trivial detail, but I have found that it is important to be as precise as possible when speaking about these things to RCs. If your account of another person's beliefs are distorted, they will generally not listen to the rest of your critique no matter how strong and compelling. And I know personally how frustrating it is when my beliefs are oversimplified or caricatured.

At any rate, I think Beckwith, for whom I still have great respect and admiration, should resign from his post. BUT, if ETS is going to enforce compliance in this, a matter about which there are possible differences of interpretation and understanding, they MUST enforce compliance about matters about which there is no such ambiguity. I'm referring in particular to John Sanders and Clark Pinnock, both of whom openly reject the inerrancy of Scripture (and embrace a host of other unbiblical, sub-Christian heresies), but who have been allowed to retain their membershp in ETS. If they're going to clean house I think they should start there, otherwise they need to be honest and revise their statement of faith to reflect those principles they are willing to enforce and uphold.

What is the acrostic ETS and who are the members? I misunderstood the original post and thought it was the Evangelical and Catholics Together group. Now I see that it is not.

ETS stands for the Evangelical Theological Society. The members are among the most outstanding evangelical biblical and theological scholars working today. Past presidents include Gordon Clark, Carl Henry, Wayne Grudem, Roger Nicole, Moises Silva, Simon Kistemaker, Kenneth Kantzer, J. Barton Payne, and Ned Stonehouse.

An offshoot organization that includes most of the leading evangelical philosophers is EPS, the Evangelical Philosophical Society.

Update:
I took a look at Beckwith's blog and apparently he has already resigned as president and as a member of the ETS executive committee.

However, he intends to remain a member of ETS:

"Because I can in good conscience, as a Catholic, affirm the ETS doctrinal statement, I do not intend to resign as a member of ETS."

Which goes back to the discussion we've been having about what Catholics consider to be the Word of God.

Whatever the final result of all this, I can agree with Beckwith about the following:

"There is a conversation in ETS that must now take place, a conversation about the relationship between Evangelicalism and what is called the “Great Tradition,” a tradition from which all Christians can trace their spiritual and ecclesiastical paternity. "

You make a good point. It is important to understand the Roman Catholicism. Richard Bennett site is quite helpful. A proper understanding of what is meant by certain key doctrines such as the decree of papal infallibility in 1817; the 1917 code of canon law where Rome was able to apply her influence internationally giving the papacy a totalitarian control over Roman Catholics everywhere; and then the Vatican II in 1962–65, where Rome became officially ready to ecumenise with,hindus, muslims and other religions including evangelicals. These should not surprise us.
  http://www.bereanbeacon.org/

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm

http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

http://www.zpub.com/un/pope/infal.html

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Issues/Papal-Infallibility/papal-infallibility.html

http://www.christiantruth.com/savingfaithandrome.html
certain Catholics in recent years are willing to define the Gospel in evangelical terms - sola gratia, sola fide, solo Christo. They insist that Martin Luther was right. What is troubling is that they do so within a broader theological position that includes transubstantiation, papal infallibility etc.

Some Catholics who prefer John Calvin's understanding of the eucharist to that of Thomas Aquinas's view. They discern that Calvin's view reproduces that of Augustine and they prefer thinking of a spiritual communion of Christ. One of the best scholars on Peter Martyr Vermigli (a Protestant Reformer) is a Catholic - Joseph Patrick Donnelly. Another profound scholar of Theodore Beza (Calvin's successor at Geneva) is the Catholic woman Jill Raitt.

Book: Justification by Faith in Catholic-Protestant Dialogue: An Evangelical Assessment by Anthony N. S. Lane. Lane is encouraged by the dialogue on justification between Catholics and Protestants. He is a proponent of the Regensburg Colloquy (1541) statement on justification which John Calvin was enthusiastic about.
another contrary viewpoint on Regensburg from Scott Clark see   http://www.wscal.edu/clark/regensburg.php

Scott Clark's approach to Regensburg tends to derogate Calvin's support of the Regensburg Book. He misses the point that Cardinal Contarini was an evangelical and part of the abortive attempt to bring Italy into the Reformed fold. Contarini was not a wishy-washy Catholic but a true believer and part of the same movement that produced Juan de Valdes, Peter Martyr Vermigli, Jerome Zanchius, Bernadino Ochino and the Turretini family. 

The most vociferous Catholics are evangelical converts to Catholicism, who reject the Gospel of sola gratia, sola fide.

These are generally obnoxious people who have an axe to grind. Most have never truly experienced a solid Reformed church. They have had bad experiences in evangelicalism and when they come home to Rome they react against the Gospel of grace. But not all Catholics are like that. Some  (admittedly a small number) have given much thought to the Biblical Gospel and are close to the Kingdom, if not already in it. Some of these will find their way out of Rome's embrace. Others may choose to stay with Rome and evangelize from within.

I attended a Roman Catholic HS and met a nun who seemed to have a solid understanding of the gospel which she embraced. Surprised that she would continue serving the RCC, I asked why? She responded that she wanted to help the other sisters (nuns) to come to know the gospel. ??? Not something I would advocate and as soon as I was allowed, I left the RCC.

Where the Scriptures are read without a doctrinal structure controlling the outcome, men and women will come to faith by the power of the Holy Spirit. 

Patrice