The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Old Testament Law

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>like your friend "Alex_Light"<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>It would be wrong to characterize Bob and myself as friends. We are acquaintances. Nor do we share the same view of Romans 7. I have great respect for Bob on several levels, and that is why I posted a link to his article. <br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>Rom 7:14 and its context <br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>I don't accept the view that Romans 7:14-24 is talking about believers in the covenant of grace. And frankly, it doesn't matter to me if 1,000 commentaries say it does. Romans 7:14-24 is referring to the righteous man under the law. Romans 8:2 and 8:9 describe the true condition of believers in the present covenant.<br><br>"The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death."<br><br>"You are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>God's moral law as being obligatory upon all men <br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Now let's talk about this notion that God's moral law is obligatory. The whole idea of living by rules and regulations didn't work. There was a fault with the old covenant. The fault was with the people. That is why God instituted a new covenant. By living within us, God has created a race of no-fault people --- thus guaranteeing that His moral law will be kept. He puts His law into our minds, and writes them on our hearts. So how can we be obligated when God has taken the responsibility? We can't. <br><br>"I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances." (Ezekiel 36:27)<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Alex<br>

In reply to:

---

[color:"blue"]That is why God instituted a new covenant. By living within us, God has created a race of no-fault people --- thus guaranteeing that His moral law will be kept. He puts His law into our minds, and writes them on our hearts. So how can we be obligated when God has taken the responsibility? We can't.

---

Well, at least you have come to admit the perpetuity of the moral law of God which in the new covenant people is written on their hearts; the same law that was written in the consciences of all men and iterated when it was written on the two tablets of stone on Sinai. Take the first law: Idolatry has always been forbidden and always shall be. It makes no difference what age, dispensation, covenant a man lives in, he is to worship the one true God and Him only. This same moral law is to be obeyed by men, regardless whether they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not; it is obligatory that all men everywhere refrain from practicing idolatry.

Now this second part of your statement is very disturbing: "So how can we be obligated when God has taken the responsibility?" Why are you insistent upon confusing Justification with Sanctification? In Justification, a sinner is pronounced righteous on the basis of Christ's vicarious, substitutionary work; an imputed righteousness. In Sanctification, that imputed righteousness begins to be realized in the transformation of a believer as he is conformed to the image of Christ; partakes of the divine nature. As Christ's righteousness was total conformity to the law, likewise all those who are being conformed to His image do likewise. However, this keeping of the law, which is pleasing to God has no merit in regard to Justification. Doing of "good works" does have its rewards nonetheless; even in their imperfections.

What is most troubling is that you think that "God is responsible" for this keeping of the law..... !! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rolleyes.gif" alt="rolleyes" title="rolleyes[/img] Can you show me ONE biblical text (in context) that shows that God, not man, is responsible TO KEEP THE LAW? Faith, for example, is a gift of grace which is included in the Holy Spirit's work of regeneration. It is the first sign of true spiritual life that emerges from the newly recreated spirit of man. Although the Spirit indwells the sinner, brings that new life in the soul which produces true saving faith, it is NOT the Spirit that is responsible to believe on Christ. It is the person's total responsibility to both repent and believe, even though the means to do so are graciously created and given by God. Man does the actual repenting and believing. Likewise in Sanctification, man is responsible to flee from sin and "put on the new man that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth." (Eph 2:24; Col 3:10; 1Joh 3:2) All who truly believe in Christ have been regenerated and given that new heart wherein the Law (moral) of God is written and to which it is given the responsibility to conform oneself to it as did Christ.

Philippians 2:12-13 (ASV) "So then, my beloved, [color:red]even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [color:red]work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure."

Could the Spirit, through the pen of Paul, have made it any clearer that he did in this passage? Believers are exhorted to OBEY always and to WORK OUT their own salvation. They are incontrovertibly responsible to "obey and work out". The responsibility to do this is incredible and seemingly impossible. Yet believers are to not become overwhelmed with this responsibility because it is God (Holy Spirit) Who provides the will (desire) and the means (strength/power) within them. There are literally dozens of exhortations found in the Epistles wherein believers are to act according to holiness and righteousness. If all believers weren't responsible to DO these things, then why are they enjoined, exhorted, commanded to do them?

Where Justification is a monergistic work; God only! [Sola Gratia], Sanctification is synergistic God and man working together to accomplish a singular purpose and end. [Soli Deo Gloria]. (cf. 1Pet 2:11ff; Gal 5-6; Eph 4-6; et al)

Galatians 6:7-9 (ASV) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not be weary in well-doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

In His Grace,

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>In Sanctification, that imputed righteousness begins to be realized in the transformation of a believer as he is conformed to the image of Christ; partakes of the divine nature.<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Now we're getting into the age-old discussion about process verses finished work. It's been my observation over the years that those who focus on what is seen focus on sanctification. Those who focus on what is not seen see sanctification as already completed.<br><br>Paul offerred some very good advice on the subject of the seen verses the unseen and which to focus on,<br><br>"We look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." (2 Cor 4:18)<br><br>As did Jesus,<br><br>"Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, then comes the harvest'? I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see how the fields are already white for harvest." (John 4:35)<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>What is most troubling is that you think that "God is responsible" for this keeping of the law..... !! <br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Well, I'm sorry you're troubled by that. But as we used to say back home, "facts is facts". I've already discussed Hebrews 8:6-12 and shown how God created a race of no-fault people who can be counted on to express God's holiness. We can be counted on to do so, 24/7, because God lives in us 24/7.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>Can you show me ONE biblical text (in context) that shows that God, not man, is responsible TO KEEP THE LAW?<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>You're talking about the moral law, correct? If so, I already did --- Ezekiel 36:27. Let me put icing on the cake. Read Galatians 2:20 and Col 3:3.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>Although the Spirit indwells the sinner, brings that new life in the soul which produces true saving faith, it is NOT the Spirit that is responsible to believe on Christ.<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Salvation is the work of God. From beginning to end. No ifs, ands, or buts about that. Man's will plays no part in it whatsoever. If it did, even a little bit, the result would be corrupt.<br><br>Jesus said He could do nothing of His own accord. Nor can we ...<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Alex<br><br><br>

Dear Alex:<br><br>Might I suggest that you change your name to Alex_Darkness, for as Jesus said, "If thy light be darkness, how great is that darkness."?<br><br>Respectfully,<br><br>Gerry

Alex_Light,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]It's been my observation over the years that those who focus on what is seen focus on sanctification. Those who focus on what is not seen see sanctification as already completed.<br><br>Paul offerred some very good advice on the subject of the seen verses the unseen and which to focus on,<br><br>"We look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." (2 Cor 4:18)</font><hr></blockquote><p>It's been said that some people are so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good. Your reply to Pilgrim has that kind of unearthly logic. <br><br>If you can get your head out of the clouds for a minute maybe you could tell me what that's going to look like to the rest of us here and now on planet earth. It sounds like a warm fuzzy to me without any substance.<br><br>Would you describe your view of the process of sanctification rather than the finished work?<br><br><br>Wes [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img]<br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>Would you describe your view of the process of sanctification rather than the finished work?<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Nope. I don't have a view on the process of sanctification except that it's already completed. Jesus, standing before the newly planted field (or perhaps the shoots were already beginning to show), said the field was already white for harvest. So that seems to me like a perfectly reasonable way to view the work of God in His children: completed.<br><br>Hebrews 11:1 provides an excellent definition of faith,<br><br>"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."<br><br>Those "things" may not be seen, but they are real none the less.<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Alex<br><br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Nope. I don't have a view on the process of sanctification except that it's already completed.</font><hr></blockquote><p>If sanctification, i.e., being made perfectly holy, like unto the Lord Christ, then there would be no sin committed by the sheep. What you are espousing is what shall take place at GLORIFICATION.<blockquote>1 John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.</blockquote>As I mentioned before, there are myriad injunctions for believers to abstain from sin and to put on Christ, i.e., to live perfect and holy. (cf. Matt 5:48; Jh 15:1, 2; 1Cor 15:53, 54; Eph 4:24; Jas 2:20, 26; 1Pet 1:15, 16)<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Jesus, standing before the newly planted field (or perhaps the shoots were already beginning to show), said the field was already white for harvest. So that seems to me like a perfectly reasonable way to view the work of God in His children: completed.</font><hr></blockquote><p> Again, [color:red]A text out of context is nothing more than PRETEXT!</font color=red> The Lord Christ, when He referred to the "fields" wasn't speaking about believers and their sanctification. No, no... He was referring to the world of sinners who were yet lost and who among them were ready to hear the gospel of grace and come to Christ. He was speaking of the "fields" as the great mission field that His disciples were to enter and "reap". If you are determined to use the Bible as your source of your beliefs, at least have the respect for it that recognizes that it is inspired and it was written with a specific purpose. Wrenching it from its context is dishonoring to God and if nothing else, to do so is akin to linguistic genocide.<br><br>In His Grace,

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>Again, A text out of context is nothing more than PRETEXT! The Lord Christ, when He referred to the "fields" wasn't speaking about believers and their sanctification. No, no... He was referring to the world of sinners who were yet lost and who among them were ready to hear the gospel of grace and come to Christ. He was speaking of the "fields" as the great mission field that His disciples were to enter and "reap". If you are determined to use the Bible as your source of your beliefs, at least have the respect for it that recognizes that it is inspired and it was written with a specific purpose. Wrenching it from its context is dishonoring to God and if nothing else, to do so is akin to linguistic genocide.<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>As believers in Jesus Christ, we are free to spiritualize what we read in the Bible --- as the Spirit leads. Our covenant is in the Spirit - not in a written code. (see 2 Cor 3:6)<br><br>Yes, each thing that was written in the Bible was written in a context. However, a thing that was written may also have a general application.<br><br>Take, for example, Paul's statement, "Each one must do as he had made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion ..." (2 Cor 9:7) Obviously, the context of this statement is giving of one's substance to help others. It also has an across-the-board application, however. It pertains to all forms of giving.<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Alex

Alex_Light,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Would you describe your view of the process of sanctification rather than the finished work?<br><br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br><br>Nope. I don't have a view on the process of sanctification except that it's already completed.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Is there no spiritual conflict in your life? No battle within your heart between the old nature and the new? Paul tells us that the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, so that you do not do the things that you wish. (see Gal.3:17) Since you believe that sanctification is already completed you must not have any spriritual conflict in your life. That's rather strange because other Christians do.<br><br>This language in his letter to the Galations is the same language Paul uses in the seventh chapter of Romans. I am quite satisfied that it does not describe the experience of an unconverted man, or of a young and unestablished Christian; but of an old experienced saint in close communion with God. None but such a man could say, “I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (Rom 7:22). This is also proved by the experience of all the most eminent servants of Christ that have ever lived. Just read their journals, their autobiographies, and the testimony of their lives. Inward conflict is no proof that a man is not holy, and that they must not think they are not sanctified because they do not feel entirely free from inward struggle. Such freedom we shall doubtless have in heaven; but we shall never enjoy it completely as you suggest in this world. <br><br>Regeneration is a momentary act, bringing a person from spiritual death to life. It is exclusively God's work. Sanctification is an ongoing process dependent on God's continuing action in the believer, consisting of the believer's continuious struggle against sin.<br><br>The standard to which God's work of sanctifying His saints is directed is His own revealed moral law, expounded and modeled by Christ Himself. Christ's love, humility, and patience are a supreme standard for Christians (Rom. 13:10; Eph. 5:2; Phil. 2:5-11; I Pet. 2:21).<br><br>Wes<br><br><br>

Wes,<br><br>Jesus said, "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied."<br><br>So there is a place of satisifaction in Christ where we're not experiencing inner struggle.<br><br>Peter said, "For whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer by human passions but by the will of God."<br><br>So there is light at the end of the tunnel --- in this life. We are not destined to continuiously struggle against sin until we step off into Glory.<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Alex<br><br>

Alex,<br><br>Your apparent total disregard for the doctrine of inspiration is disheartening, to say the least. You have several times ripped verses out of their context in an attempt to justify a doctrine that is not to be found in the Scriptures. Ironically, you have even done this to justify your pretexting.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]As believers in Jesus Christ, we are free to spiritualize what we read in the Bible --- as the Spirit leads. Our covenant is in the Spirit - not in a written code. (see 2 Cor 3:6)</font><hr></blockquote><p>Here's the CONTEXT of this verse:<blockquote>2 Corinthians 3:4-6 (ASV) "And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward: not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God; who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."</blockquote>Paul is clearly speaking about the Apostolic office which Christ had appointed him to. He goes on to show that the gospel which he was given was superior to the glory of that which was given to Moses, which was but a shadow of that which was to come in Christ. Even more clear is that Paul is comparing the ceremonial/sacrificial laws administered by the Aaronic Priesthood and the fulness of the atonement wrought by Christ and applied by the Spirit to believers in the new covenant. The law was unable to bring about life, but only pointed forward to Him Who would secure that life in His vicarious substitutionary atonement and which is now applied to believers by the Spirit. The text has absolutely NOTHING to do with giving someone the freedom to "spiritualize" the Bible by some alleged "spirit". For the Holy Spirit, the Author of the Scriptures, does not teach in those Scriptures that freedom.<br><br>What you call "freedom to spiritualize" totally ignores the fact that God has determined to communicate to His own via language and grammar. The Spirit, who inspired the writers of Scripture, cannot contradict Himself by allegedly "leading" someone to another teaching which He has not providentially had put into writing. Thus, the apostle John warns that we are not to "believe every 'spirit', but to test the 'spirits'." To do so requires that there be an objective standard of propositional truth that is discernible to those who are in need of knowing who is teaching error. That standard is God's infallible and inerrant Word.... not some inner movement of the Spirit. For the Holy Spirit opens the mind to that which has been written. Paul certainly held this to be true when he wrote:<blockquote>Acts 17:11 (ASV) "Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so." and to Timothy,<br><br>2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."</blockquote>The Spirit does not speak apart from His own Word. See here: Does God Speak Apart From the Bible?<br><br>In His Grace,

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] I don't have a view on the process of sanctification except that it's already completed.</font><hr></blockquote><p> If you are finding this (completed santifcation and a place of satisfaction in Christ where we're not experiencing inner struggle) in this world at this present time then you have revealed something very important to all of us here--that you are not a Christian! This is Scripturally speaking, as all genuine Christians have a struggle against sin. If there is no struggle then you must be deceived by your depravity (Jer 17:9).<br><br>If you are NOT experiencing any inner struggle this means you are "perfectly sanctified" and without sin "now" presently, which is NOT the truth. This is against Scripture:<br><br><blockquote>1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.</blockquote> Additionally, if it were not possible for a Christian to sin, then why would Christ and Paul, and John, et. al. give admonitions against it? Why would we need commands to walk in the spirit, et. al.<br><br>And please DO NOT take Scriptures out of CONTEXT in your replies. This is adamic proof-texting. It is not Christian, moral, or ethical to cause confusion and contradict God's Holy Word by such literary techniques. Satan mastered that technique with Eve in the Garden and has used it ever since upon mankind--look at all the "cults" that have originated from such.

You and I obviously disagree on the matter of context. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>Paul is clearly speaking about the Apostolic office which Christ had appointed him to.<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Of course he is. And as his way of transitioning between talking about his calling and talking about the superiority of the new covenant over the old, he says,<br><br>"(Our covenant is) not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life." <br><br>It is a glorious statement of Truth.<br><br>[quote]<br>Thus, the apostle John warns that we are not to "believe every 'spirit', but to test the 'spirits'." To do so requires that there be an objective standard of propositional truth that is discernible to those who are in need of knowing who is teaching error. That standard is God's infallible and inerrant Word.... not some inner movement of the Spirit. <br>[\quote]<br><br>The Bible, as we know it, was not compiled when John wrote that statement. So clearly, he was not referring to what later became canonized and known as the Bible. In the same letter he wrote,<br><br>"The anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as His anointing teaches you about everything." (1 John 2:27)<br><br>The Holy Spirit is the Revealer of Truth. He lives within us, and we can depend on Him to teach us what is true,<br><br>"When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the Truth; for He will not speak on his own authority, but whatever He hears he will speak." (John 16:13)<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Alex<br><br>

Alex_Light.......you said;<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The Holy Spirit is the Revealer of Truth. He lives within us, and we can depend on Him to teach us what is true,</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>So, that begs the question, "How do we know your 'revealed' truth is any better than that of the Jehovah Witnesses or the Mormon prophet? What standard do we "test" the spirits by?<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>What standard do we "test" the spirits by?<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>The Holy Spirit teaches us all things and guides us into all the truth.<br><br>Indisputable historical fact #1:<br><br>Down through history, even to the present day, a sizable percentage of true believers in Jesus Christ have not had the New Testament, as we know it, available to them.<br><br>It wasn't until 397 A.D. that the Council of Carthage approved "the final list of inspired books, the infallible and unchangeable Canon of Scripture." And it was another 1,000 years or so before the printing press was invented and the New Testament started to become widely available.<br><br>Even today there are many believers who either don't have a Bible or who could read one if they did.<br><br>Indisputable historical fact #2:<br><br>Down through history, to the present day, the Holy Spirit lives within every true believer in Jesus Christ.<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Alex<br><br><br><br><br><br>