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catholicguy #38345 Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 591
catholicguy said:

Regardless, one continues to feel (and fear) that Luther has been presumptous and we appear to have no evidence of his authority in the eyes of God to form his own Church and leading half the Christian world along with him.

Luther did presume and asserted that the church of God was founded upon His words in the Scripture Alone. This obviously means that those who do not believe, add to or subtract, to the denial of the Gospel, from His words are not Christians!

As Boettner said in his book Roman Catholicism Ch. 18, why has the RCC brought so much poverty, ignorance of Scripture, idolatry, crime, political corruption, and misery in every single place it has found a foothold or national dominion?

Do not insist to us with your beads, infused righteousness, indulgences, infallible Pope and Mariology here on this Reformed (with our own errors and all) website, what we already know and have proven by His words, to be a blasphemy of the Spirit of God.


Romans 3:22-24


Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
catholicguy #38346 Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 100

You ask the difference between the visible and invisible church. If you ask a protestant, the reply will be that the invisible church consists of all who have responded to the gospel message, the Rev 3:20 test (Behold, I stand at the door and knock..) and have made Christ their personal Savior.

If you ask a Catholic, you will hear the response that the the church is visible, as Jesus refers to us as a shining city on a hill, visible to all. Protestants will view this comparison as a referrence to the contrast of the life of the believer to the decadence all around. Catholics view this comparison as a referrence to a structured, organized Church which the world can look to as a tangeable system of moral and doctrinal authority.

In many European countries, ancient cathedrals dot the landscape making the Church a very visible entity. In China and other hotspots of persecution, Christians meet in secret and Bibles must be smuggled in. Here the Church is very "invisible" as it must remain underground. The history of Christianity has shown the Church to flourish in both circumstances.

I hope this helps.

Liberalism -- Ideas so good, they have to be mandated.
via_dolorosa #38347 Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:05 AM
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The Boy Wonder
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The Boy Wonder
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That may be what "most" Protestants would say, but it is not an accurate description of what most of us here on the Highway believe.

The visible church is just that - visible - a structured, organized city on a hill, not a scattering of godly individuals hiding from the decadence of the world so as not to be tainted by it.

The terms visible and invisible refer simply to the wheat and the tares. The tares grow among the wheat here in the visible church, and we can't always tell which is which. But after the great harvest at the end of the age, when the wheat and the tares are separated, will we see the invisible church - that is, the true church.

The visible church is the church as we see it, through flawed, finite eyes that see only the outward appearance. The invisible church is the Church as God sees her, looking upon the heart, with perfect, flawless, timeless clarity.

Robin #38348 Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 100
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 100

Thank you for your opinion. I was giving catholicguy the most common understanding of the meaning of those words as generally understood. Christianity started out as an underground Church, meaning Christians feared to practice their faith openly. This would be described as an invisible Church as would the Church today in China. In many ways, the Chinese Christians are still that shining city on a hill with Jesus shining in their lives, but they cannot "give reason for the hope" that they least not openly. We ought always to pray for the persecuted Church.

Liberalism -- Ideas so good, they have to be mandated.
via_dolorosa #38349 Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
Christ is the Head of the Church.....

In the New Testament,Christ spoke of other sheep that shall hear His voice (as per John 10:16).If left unchecked,this type of conjecture could easily spin out of control because,hidden or visible, none is able to discern who does or does not constitute the foreordained.Man has no criteria or gauge whatsoever (as per Romans 8:33)

Submitted in the name of Him which hath redeemed the elect, Eric Wells,Protestant Laird of Glencairn
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