The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum "Love your enemies" and "Does God love all"

Sorry for my late reply. I agree that "love" is not the best word to use in this situation. It's ripe for different interpretations from different people and, hence, miscommunication.


This is something I didn't know, but it very good to be aware of. I hope one day I will find the time to learn Greek.

Marie,

I'll just say that (as Pilgrim said) if you use "love" in this case, it needs to be defined so the person you are talking to is sure to understand the meaning we have been discussing and not left to formulate their own idea of what "love" God is showing to the non-elect. I am not sure I like the use of the term "unregenerate" in this case because even the elect were unregenerate at one point.

John

You mean overreaction, LOL. A knee-jerk response to a misreading of Hisalone's post, in which I assumed he said Pilgrim was being inconsistent with Dordt.

Sorry, y'all. I forgot to count to ten before hitting that Reply button...

-R

John,

Errata: Actually the word "kindness" in Titus 3:4 is not the same as "love" (philanthropia). It is chrestotes, which has the following meanings/uses: usefulness, i.e. morally, excellence (in character or demeanor), gentleness, good(-ness), kindness.

Even so, this does not change the fact that Titus 3:4 does NOT teach that God loves all men, but rather that God shows "beneficence" to all men. And that kindness chrestotes is meant to lead men to repentance (cf. Rom 2:4 where Paul uses this same word).

In His grace,

I was wondering if what Hisalone refers to as objective love not perhaps better known as common grace?

Johan

Johan,

Personally, if I am understanding hisalone's view re: the love of God, it would not be synonymous with "Common Grace"; an unfortunate misnomer in itself. Because, hisalone has made it clear that 1) his view deviates from that of historic Reformed and Calvinistic churches and their respective Confessions. 2) That because God IS love, then of necessity His love must be equal toward all men; the application of that love is what differs. It appears to me that this view has no biblical basis which I have aforementioned in my other replies, e.g., that when Scripture speaks of God's love it is most always inextricably bound with salvation and the objects of that salvation are the Elect and not all mankind. Contrariwise, when speaking of the Reprobate, the word "hate/hatred" is everywhere used and not love. What is used in reference to all of mankind, i.e., unbelievers, are terms such as "kindness", "beneficence", "long-suffering", "patience", etc., all of which are to lead the unbeliever to repentance. And, should the individual not repent, such benevolent treatment of them will be used against them at the Judgment.

So, for these two reasons alone, I cannot see hisalone's view being akin to the doctrine of "Common Grace". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Okay!


Johan

Johan,

There is a very interesting and revealing passage, which I am sure you are familiar with which shows that God's "love" is both particular (discriminate and not universal in kind) and redemptive in its content. In this passage, God's love is given to one group and His hatred for all others.

Deuteronomy 7:6-10 (ASV) "For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God hath chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth. Jehovah did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all peoples: but because Jehovah loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he sware unto your fathers, hath Jehovah brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that Jehovah thy God, he is God, the faithful God, who keepeth covenant and lovingkindness with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations, and repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face."

The passage is open to discussion by all, of course.

In His grace,

Pilgrim, I am not able to respond as much as I would like, but until I can get back to the whole discussion, can you clear up what God means by "set" His love? and then also, when He says He loves Israel, does that mean "ALL" Israel or just the elect out of Israel? I want to spend more time in this discussion, but my time is committed elsewhere for a few days, but I'll be popping in and out.

hisalone,

1) I do not understand "set" to mean something other than "to have AND extend love for". Or, to put it more simply, God loved Israel and no one else, which the passage surely shows.

2) God's love was given to ALL Israel, i.e., the true Israel as Paul indicates, for example, in Romans and Galatians:

Please read the Deuteronomy passage again carefully and notice the discriminating love of God toward Israel vs. His anger (non-love) toward the nations of Canaan. Secondly, notice carefully that not only did God love Israel and not the other nations, but He also chose Israel because He loved them AND He would keep His promise (covenant of grace) which He made with their forefathers, i.e., Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And lastly, read the entire chapter and notice again the vivid contrast between God's love for His chosen people and all other peoples. Can you conclude after reading it that God loved ALL, without distinction and equally? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

Oh, take your time in replying . . . we will be here, D.v. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Hi Marie,

In my opinion the belief in a WMO by a preacher would not necessarily cause or require him (hopefully a him) to preach "Christ died for you" but preaching "Christ died for you" without further explanation is very prevalent in the church today by those who profess the doctrines of grace while at the same time hide behind the name Reformed. To preach that "Christ died for sinners" and "there is no sinner who comes to Christ that He will not receive" by any preacher is OK and right, you can even throw in a "whosoever will" but all these statements need to be qualified.

God's promises are particular to the elect, and only to those will repent and believe.



In peace William,
.

-----

God loves all...but all don't love him. The first poster said..."did Jesus as a man, love his enemies, even those who are non-elect...." That would be the Gentiles. Of course God loves all Gentiles. Israel was 'the elect nation' and God called Jesus 'mine elect' who represented fallen Israel on the Cross. So did he love his enemies....Israel...he sure did! And because of their FALL we Gentiles get mercy! Don't get all caught up in talking about 'the elect' and 'the non-elect', as if God is not a God of Judgment.

-----

Jeanne,

Your post is a little old, but I just ran across it. I do not think I can agree with many of the things you wrote. First of all, I do not think that "God does love all" in the sense that he loves the elect. In fact, the Bible has many passages that state God is in fact very displeased (to put it mildly) with many. I also do not agree if you are trying to equate the non-elect with Gentiles. While many Gentiles are non-elect, many Jews are too. Nor do I think you are correct when you say God loves all Gentiles. Also, you first say that the Gentiles are Christ's enemies and then that Israel (non-Gentiles) are God's enemies. I think that Biblically, all (Jews and Gentiles) are enemies of God until they have placed their faith in Christ alone. I am not sure it is correct to say that we received mercy because the Jews fell. We receive mercy only because of God's free love and mercy according to His on will. I do agree that sometimes it's easy to get caught up in talking about the elect and non-elect, but these ideas are found in the Bible, so we cannot just toss them out.

Note: When I use the word "love" above, I am using the term to denote the special love that God shows toward his elect (see other posts in this thread).

John