|
Posts: 706
Joined: May 2016
|
|
|
|
Forums31
Topics8,347
Posts56,542
Members992
| |
Most Online2,383
Jan 12th, 2026
|
|
|
#39840
Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:03 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190
Member  |
OP
Member Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190 |
Just to get the thread started about regeneration and what took place in the O.T. and what takes place in the N.T. I will ask a question, were the O.T. saints sealed with the Spirit? If you answer yes, then please explain why they had to continue with the animal sacrifices. If your answer is no, then we will be starting on common ground in this discussion. Until Tomorrow.
Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 551
Addict
|
|
Addict
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 551 |
hisalone said:
Just to get the thread started about regeneration and what took place in the O.T. and what takes place in the N.T. I will ask a question, were the O.T. saints sealed with the Spirit? If you answer yes, then please explain why they had to continue with the animal sacrifices. If your answer is no, then we will be starting on common ground in this discussion. Until Tomorrow. I do not think that there is any difference between regeneration in the O.T. and the N.T. I believe if you read Romans 8, it is very clear that all Christians have God's Spirit. If there is no Spirit, there is no Christian. I think Romans 8 applies equally well in the O.T. and the N.T. I think the purpose of the sacrifice in the O.T. was to point towards Christ. The constant sacrifices were to show the people in the O.T. their need for a savior and the depth of the wickedness of their sins in that blood was needed to atone for them. However, as we read in Hebrews, the blood of animals is insufficient to atone for a man's sins. Hence, we understand that the sacrifices are showing the Israelites their need for something or someone greater to atone for them. That is why the animal sacrifices stopped with Christ (well actually a little afterward, but the point is the same). Once Christ was revealed and His blood was shed, the need for sacrifices to point towards Christ was no longer needed as Christ was now seen clearly instead of dimly. I would highly suggest you read Hebrews and Romans. John
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190
Member |
OP
Member Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190 |
I disagree with your assessments of things. There is a difference between the O.T. and N.T. concerning the indwelling of the Spirit.
The difference between the O.T. and the N.T. is how God worked. In the O.T. God was in the midst of the people. He could be know by the people because He revealed Himself to them. They had the light of God's glory in the midst of them. Today, that light is the Holy Spirit which is given to us. No longer is the light in the Temple, but e are not the Temple of God. The church is to be the light to the world, in other words, His temple is in the midst of a lost world. Sadly, the light is slowly dying.
If the O.T. saints had the indwelling presence of the Spirit, then they would not have been so concerned if the Glory of the Lord departed the Temple. They had knowledge of God because of His revealing Himself to them. Going back to the temple, the only way that the people could approach God was thru sacrifices, they were necessary for more than just point to Christ as you say.
John 14:17 Christ tells the disciples, but you know Him because He abides WITH you, and will be IN you. This clearly shows the difference of with and indwelling. Christ was with the disciples, so the Spirit of Truth was with them, not in them, not until the work of Christ was accomplished.
So this doesn't get too lengthy, two ending questions, if the indwelling Spirit is the same in the O.T. and the N.T., then why did David pray: Cast me not away from thy presence, and take not thy holy spirit from me Ps. 51:11? and for Saul, if he was indwelt and the Spirit of the Lord departed 1 Sam. 16:14, then apparently we can lose our salvation. This is contrary to the rest of scripture.
Ending, the comment about suggesting that I read Hebrews and Romans wasn't very kind by way of implication.
Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274
Head Honcho
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274 |
hisalone, You apparently are equating the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit with "regeneration" of the Holy Spirit? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> Could you either affirm or deny that this is the case for my better understanding of your view(s)? However, regardless of the answer to the above question, I have a few more questions which I would appreciate you taking time to answer: 1. Please define: "regeneration". 2. Is there a difference in the spiritual condition of the people in the O.T. compared to those in the N.T.? 3. What do you believe was/is the spiritual condition of all men? (if different between covenants, please explain) 4. How were the people of the O.T. saved? compared to those in the N.T.? In His grace,
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif) simul iustus et peccator![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190
Member |
OP
Member Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190 |
Pilgrim, in answer to the questions, I'm sorry, I don't know how to insert the quotes, so I must just number them, I'm stupid about some things so bear with me.
1. Regeneration - simply put, it is the beginning of spiritual life. It is brought about by the knowledge of God.
Jn. 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent,
I pointed out that they had the ability to know God by His being present among them, and rightly said, the sacrifices pointed toward the redeemer, which was their future hope.
2. The spiritual condition of the O.T. and N.T. is the same respecting whether they were dead or alive. Those who God draws to Himself, He revealed His true self to them. They were given understanding. God drew the O.T. saints to Himself, making Himself known. This knowledge was more complete than the knowledge of the demons and was life producing. They had communion/fellowship with the Holy Spirit of God. Remember, at the first sin, man was separated from God, life is being brought back into fellowship with Him and this is accomplished through the blood.
3. The spiritual condition of all men is that they are born spiritually dead in trespasses and sin, without God in the world as mentioned above. The difference in the covenants is the sealing of the Spirit. We now have the witness of the Spirit in us where they did not have that. I will try to expand on this more, but am pressed for time right now.
4. The O.T. people were saved just as we are today. The five solas of the reformation are the same for both testaments.
They excercised faith - Sola Fide
This was done by grace alone, God drawing them to Himself
Done through the word alone (revealed through signs and spoken/written word)
Accomplished through Christ alone, Ceremonial law pointed to this
For the Glory of God alone
Since I answered your questions, would you answer mine in the previous post?
Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 38
Newbie
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 38 |
OT saints were saved the same as NT saints Faith alone in Christ alone. They looked forward to God's fulfillment of His promise in Gen 3:15 and to Abraham that he would send a Messiah.
The Holy Spirit came upon people in the OT, Saul, David, the prophets, but believers were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. In John 9:39. The Spirit was given after Jesus was glorified
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274
Head Honcho
|
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274 |
hisalone said:
Pilgrim, in answer to the questions, I'm sorry, I don't know how to insert the quotes, so I must just number them, I'm stupid about some things so bear with me. Okay, let's resolve the issue of including quoted material from other's posts: 1. Click on the "Quote" button when viewing the other person's post/reply. EVERYTHING will be included between the "quote" tags. You can then edit out those portions you do not wish to include. 2. In every post/reply window, just below the text box you will see the "Advanced UBBT Code" box. Simply click on the down arrow for the last item in the right column, "Quote/Code" and fill in the text you so desire. 3. You can read how to include quotes here: Can I Use HTML in My Posts?. You might benefit from reading through the entire FAQ section. (see the FAQ link on the Menubar at the top of every page). 4. Another place where you can learn about the MANY features of this Board is in the New Features Forum. 5. Lastly, the basic UBB Code tags to add quotes is as follows and which is shown in the FAQ link above: Type in the "opening" quote tag insert your text and then type the "closing" tag:
[quote]type or copy/paste the desired text[/quote]
hisalone said:
1. Regeneration - simply put, it is the beginning of spiritual life. It is brought about by the knowledge of God.
Jn. 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent,
I pointed out that they had the ability to know God by His being present among them, and rightly said, the sacrifices pointed toward the redeemer, which was their future hope. Taken at face value, your description of regeneration is similar to that of the Pelagians, semi-Pelagians and Arminians. An unregenerate sinner is INCAPABLE of knowing God; indeed he has no desire to know God as He is and how He has revealed Himself in Scripture. (cf. Jh 3:3, 5; 1Cor 2:14; Rom 8:7, 8; Eph 4:17-19) Regeneration is a "resurrection' of the soul, to be 'made alive' from being dead (Eph 2:1-5), akin to the bodily raising of Lazarus from the dead. Man's STATE is one of total spiritual death; that corruption of nature which is inherited from Adam's transgression (aka: Original Sin - 1 of 2 elements of it). (Rom 5:12-21; 1Cor 15:21, 22) Thus regeneration is absolutely necessary for there to be ANY disposition toward and ability to know God. Regeneration is a radical CHANGE OF NATURE which is accomplished by the monergistic (alone), silent/non-experienced and sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. (Jh 3:6-8) The result of regeneration is conversion via the inner and effectual calling of the Holy Spirit whereby one's eyes are opened, mind enabled to comprehend the things of God and the bondage to sin broken and which infallibly leads to repentance and the believing upon Christ unto justification. I would hope that the following articles would aid you in a further and right understanding of this fundamental biblical doctrine: - The New Genesis: The Holy Spirit and Regeneration, by R.C. Sproul - The Nature, Causes and Means of Regeneration, by John Owen - Regeneration, or the New Birth, by Arthur W. Pink In short, in regard to the woman who wiped Jesus feet with her hair, she did so out of love. Thus, she of necessity was previously regenerated. All those in the O.T. who had heart-felt interest in God and in receiving forgiveness of sins were of necessity regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For the O.T. is even more replete with the horrible condition of man in his natural state (unregenerated), e.g. Gen 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; 15:14-16; Ps 51:5; Eccl 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 17:7; 13:23; et al) In His grace,
simul iustus et peccator
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190
Member |
OP
Member Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190 |
Pilgrim said:.
Taken at face value, your description of regeneration is similar to that of the Pelagians, semi-Pelagians and Arminians. An unregenerate sinner is INCAPABLE of knowing God; indeed he has no desire to know God as He is and how He has revealed Himself in Scripture. (cf. Jh 3:3, 5; 1Cor 2:14; Rom 8:7, 8; Eph 4:17-19) I already agree with you on the issue of regeneration, I said God draws, God reveals, it is all God's work giving understanding, I'm far from Pelagian or Arminian, ai yi yi, I'm not too clear in my replies I guess!!! I don't know how you thought I was there when I ended with the 5 solas, but it is probably my poor communication skills. My disagreement from the previous post was they alluded to the indwelling of the Spirit in the O.T. For me, that is the difference between the O.T. and the N.T., that was all I was trying to express. Thanks for the info on the inserting quotes. Hisalone
Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274
Head Honcho
|
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274 |
hisalone said:
I already agree with you on the issue of regeneration, I said God draws, God reveals, it is all God's work giving understanding, I'm far from Pelagian or Arminian, ai yi yi, I'm not too clear in my replies I guess!!! I don't know how you thought I was there when I ended with the 5 solas, but it is probably my poor communication skills. My disagreement from the previous post was they alluded to the indwelling of the Spirit in the O.T. For me, that is the difference between the O.T. and the N.T., that was all I was trying to express. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/okey.gif) on the possibility of "poor communication skills". I am guilty of the same from time to time. So, how did I arrive at my assessment of your view of regeneration? It was from what you wrote here:
1. Regeneration - simply put, it is the beginning of spiritual life. It is brought about by the knowledge of God.
Jn. 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent,
There is no need to iterate my response(s) in full but only to repeat that regeneration is totally "alien" to the sinner; e.g., knowledge has no part whatsoever in one being "born from above, born again, regenerated, spiritually resurrected, made alive". It is a silent, secret and sovereign work of the Holy Spirit the result of that work being: one made able to comprehend one's sinful state, guilt, hopeless condition, bondage to sin, God's present wrath, need of reconciliation to God, deliverance from and remission of sins, the loveliness of Christ, the sufficiency of His atoning work in behalf of sinners, a love for all that is holy, righteous and good and a desire to repent and believe whole-heartily upon the person of the Lord Christ unto salvation. (aka: conversion) So again, UNTIL and not until AFTER one is regenerated is true spiritual knowledge of God known and embraced.  Regeneration is a monergistic act. Salvation is ALL of grace. (Jonah 2:9), which I am sure you rejoice in. In Him,
simul iustus et peccator
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 551
Addict
|
|
Addict
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 551 |
hisalone said:
I disagree with your assessments of things. There is a difference between the O.T. and N.T. concerning the indwelling of the Spirit. hisalone, I actually had questions about this before. Here is the thread we discussed it in. I think my views are still the same. https://www.the-highway.com/forum/showfla...amp;o=&vc=1John
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 38
Newbie
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 38 |
Thank You John for posting the link. I am still trying to digest Warfield's article. It is mind boggling to contemplate the enormity of the Spirit's work. What a great and Awesome God He is
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710
Addict
|
|
Addict
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 710 |
hisalone said:
Just to get the thread started about regeneration and what took place in the O.T. and what takes place in the N.T. <span style="background-color:#FFFF00">I will ask a question, were the O.T. saints sealed with the Spirit?</span> If you answer yes, then please explain why they had to continue with the animal sacrifices. If your answer is no, then we will be starting on common ground in this discussion. Until Tomorrow. This may help. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/coffee2.gif" alt="" /> THE CHRISTIAN’S REASONABLE SERVICE
WILHELMUS à BRAKEL
Chapter Thirty–eight
The Sealing of the Believer by the Holy Spirit and by Means of the Sacraments
All the ways of the Lord with His elect are mercy. Not only is this true in bringing the most wretched among them to the greatest felicity after this life, but also because He bestows so many benefits on them as they journey through this life. He leads them in a wondrous manner; every step is a manifestation of unfathomable wisdom and goodness. It is His desire that they see and know this, and that they would live in the assurance of His goodness toward them. To facilitate this, numerous marks and qualifications of gracious souls are presented in the Word of God, and in this manner many promises are made and repeated. Yes, above and beyond that, the Lord gives them an earnest and a seal, and transcending all adoration, the Holy Spirit Himself is that seal who seals the eternal inheritance to them. He does this Himself internally, as well as in a manner most commensurate with human nature: by means of external signs and seals, generally referred to as sacraments.
A Description of the Act of Sealing
Sealing is the imprinting of one’s coat of arms—engraven in a signet—upon something, doing so 1) to distinguish one’s own property from that of others, 2) to conceal something from others, 3) to preserve something in its purity, and 4) to assure one of being a partaker of something. The Holy Spirit accomplishes this work by the instrumentality of the Word in order to engrave His operations in the hearts of believers.
The Sealing by the Holy Spirit and what He Accomplishes Thereby
The apostle testifies that the Holy Spirit seals believers: “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30).
The activities and purposes of the sealing process are also applied to the children of God.
(1) The Holy Spirit Himself is the seal and earnest of the promised inheritance. “In whom ye also trusted, after that...ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession” (Eph. 1:13–14).
(2) The Holy Spirit impresses the image of God upon the children of God. They are the express image of Christ. “We shall also bear the image of the heavenly” (1 Cor. 15:49); “I travail...until Christ be formed in you” (Gal. 4:19). The Holy Spirit accomplishes this by regenerating and sanctifying them. “But we all...are changed unto the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord” (2 Cor. 3:18).
(3) Others recognize believers by means of this seal, and God knows them to be His property. “Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity” (2 Tim. 2:19). Hereby the unconverted recognize the regenerate, perceiving that there is a different Spirit and a different life in them. “...They took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus” (Acts 4:13); “And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed” (Isa. 61:9). Believers know by this seal that they are children and heirs of God. “Hereby know we that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit” (1 John 4:13).
(4) Believers, by means of this seal, are hidden from the eyes of the world. The world indeed perceives that there is a different Spirit and life in believers, but is not acquainted with the glory and felicity of their state. “Therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not” (1 John 3:1); “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory” (Col. 3:3–4).
(5) By means of this seal believers are preserved free of blemish. In reference to this they are called “a fountain sealed” (Song of Sol. 4:12). Revelation 7:3 also refers to this: “Hurt not the earth...till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
(6) By the seal of the Holy Spirit God’s children are assured of being partakers of the covenant of grace and all its promises. “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God” (1 Cor. 2:12). The Holy Spirit reveals to them the graces which have been laid within them. He directs them to texts which promise salvation to those who are in such a condition. He enables them to fully understand these texts and by them draw a conclusion about their state of grace. Their sanctified judgment convinces them of this, and the Holy Spirit joins with this by His immediate operation upon their heart. He thereby witnesses in harmony with what their spirit judges and witnesses of itself, confirming that their judgment concerning themselves is right. Therefore, by way of the witness of their own judgment, He makes it clear to them and immediately makes the assurance lively within them that they are partakers of the promises. “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God” (Rom. 8:16). William
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190
Member |
OP
Member Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190 |
Hi William,
Thanks for the quote, I like Brakel a lot, having his works on my shelf. The things you quoted of his still do not answer the question about the sealing of the Spirit. I personally do not believe the O.T. believers were sealed as we are today. First, because the Spirit was not yet given. Jn. 7:39. Also, by way of example, I believe that if David were indwelt/sealed (I believe these go hand in hand) with the Spirit, he could not have sinned as he did in the matter with Bathsheba. That went beyond backsliding. It also showed us how gracious our God is, because David was restored. Until Christ was made a propitiation, the Spirit could not be united to that which was considered unclean, without Christ, there wasn't any sufficient cleansing.
We were all regenerated in the same way, by God opening our eyes, making us alive, but their hope was looking future, ours is present within us making it a present reality although the culmination will be in the future. The O.T. saints loved to attend to the Temple for worship, It is too bad that Christians today don't understand the great privilege of worship we have today. I go to hear what the Spirit of Christ has to say. I am not interested in man's opinions of the Bible. What a blessing we have in the indwelling of His Spirit, and so many neglect it or count worship as a common thing, it should be far from common, it should be powerful and Spirit filled. (sorry, got offtrack, but I can't help it when thinking on these things)
Ending, you didn't say what you thought one way or another, so I'm just responding to the highlighted section which you quoted, it wasn't answered by Brakel from what I could see.
Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274
Head Honcho
|
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274 |
hisalone said:
I personally do not believe the O.T. believers were sealed as we are today. First, because the Spirit was not yet given. Jn. 7:39. Also, by way of example, I believe that if David were indwelt/sealed (I believe these go hand in hand) with the Spirit, he could not have sinned as he did in the matter with Bathsheba. That went beyond backsliding. Methinks you are basing too much of your view(s) upon personal deductions and not upon Scriptural statements which teach otherwise.  What and/or who determines how far one can sin and cross some line which "goes beyond backsliding"? Is there biblical support that a justified believer cannot commit certain sins? hisalone also said:
It also showed us how gracious our God is, because David was restored. Until Christ was made a propitiation, the Spirit could not be united to that which was considered unclean, without Christ, there wasn't any sufficient cleansing. The promise of the coming Messiah and faith in that immutable promise was sufficient to justify the saints of the O.T.:
Isaiah 45:22 (ASV) "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else."
Romans 4:3 (KJV) "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
Galatians 3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
James 2:23 (KJV) "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."
In fact, Jesus Christ Himself testified that Abraham even "saw" Him and rejoiced in that fact.
John 8:56 (ASV) "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad."
Further, Paul used much of the Old Testament Scriptures to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and because of which many believed and were saved:
Acts 28:23 (ASV) "And when they had appointed him a day, they came to him into his lodging in great number; to whom he expounded [the matter,] testifying the kingdom of God, and persuading them concerning Jesus, both from the law of Moses and from the prophets, from morning till evening.
That the ministration of the Holy Spirit differed between the Old and New Covenant, the means of salvation was one and the same; from Adam to the last man. It is the Holy Spirit who regenerates the spiritually dead hearts of the elect in all ages. It is the same grace of faith which rests in Christ regardless of the age it is given. Without the inner working of the Spirit's regeneration, there can be no faith found in any man. (Jh 6:44) That the OT saints looked forward to the coming of the Savior is no different than present-day sinners looking back upon the completed work of the Savior. The types and shadows which those in the OT had was sufficient to show the need of grace and salvation. Our hope is not to be found "within us" but rather outside of us, looking unto Christ the author and finisher of our faith. The Holy Spirit does not save!! Christ, the Lord Christ and Him alone is our only Mediator and Savior. The Spirit simply applies the redemption merited by Christ's active obedience and passive obedience. That is why the Spirit MUST work the same in EVERY sinner from Adam to the last man on earth to bring salvation to those who believe. In His grace,
simul iustus et peccator
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190
Member |
OP
Member Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 190 |
My views are not based on personal deductions, however, I mentioned David only as an example, not from where I got my conclusions. Did the Spirit convict David of his sin, or was it necessary for someone to point it out to him? I can't speak for others, but if I even inadvertently tell a half truth, I'm cut to the heart, how is it possible for one to fall so far if the Spirit dwelt within him? (I know in man, any depth of sin is possible, but it would be hard to kick that hard against the goads). That aside, since that isn't the place we get our doctrine, I have some additional statements to make.
I think the whole point of the O.T. is being missed. It was the presence of God in the midst of Israel. Their relationship with God was much different than ours. They had the outer workings of God. Yes, God worked internally various times in different people, but there was never a permanent indwelling, a sealing. God was with them through His Temple presence. It was through the Temple that they knew Him, and worshipped Him.
If you want to mention Abraham, He also spoke with God, God revealed Himself to him. God is not limited in what He can reveal to man, these individuals saw or spoke with God, we don't meet God in that manner today, we have His indwelling instead, not earned, but given to whoever according to His own good pleasure.
If the Spirit worked the same in all, O.T. and N.T., then Adam and Eve died for basically a very short time then were made alive shortly afterwards. That's just weird. I'm saying this tongue in cheek, "sin isn't as horrible as I thought it was". When they were cast from the garden, they were cast from God's presence. Not only did they die spiritually, but they lost their personal relationship with God. They could only come to God through sacrifice, but until the perfect sacrifice, they did not have the union of the Spirit we have today. God then withdrew His presence for an extended period of time and the result was that every thought of man was wickedness. There was no relationship with God and God flooded the earth.
Another thing, What was the prophet Ezekiel talking about if they had the Spirit already? If you say that it was a better or more complete Spirit, then God isn't any longer unchanging, which is contrary to scripture.
Ezekiel 11:9 "And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
I'm sorry but I can't agree with you concerning your view of the indwelling of the Spirit before the cross. It doesn't harm the crucial beliefs of the faith, just we have different views of how God worked before the Cross and after the Cross.
Try to separate the two testaments in your thinking, and try to see how God was present in each case. I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm only trying to get you to look at it from a different angle.
Hisalone
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. KJV
|
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
636
guests, and
28
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
31
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|
|
