The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Where do you and/or your church stand?

I guess either I failed to make the point or you aren't getting it? What I was trying to get across was that you appeared to singling out something which you personally had struggled with and making it something far worse than it was; one who consistently watches NFL football on Sunday can't be saved. We ALL sin in myriad ways and thus I was attempting to show you that sanctification is a process and not an something that instantly happens. King David was a murderer and adulterer yet his salvation was secure in Christ. This is NOT in any shape or form to be misconstrued as saying that I believe that one can live a life of gross sin, or any sin, and rest assured that they are saved.

A person who profanes the Lord's Day by watching NFL football on that day has a problem to be sure. That problem in my estimation isn't in the OUTWARD watching of the game(s), but rather with the mind and heart. Perhaps that individual has never heard a sermon or been taught about the Lord's Day, although I would hope the Spirit would bring some type of conviction to one's soul about this. And, if this person came to understand the blessings given by God to believers on The Lord's Day, he/she would then see that watching "the game" was dishonoring to God and a waste of time.

Remember, David didn't repent the day after...! Instead of immediately condemning others for what WE perceive as being a sin, even if it is an actual transgression of God's law, we should humbly remember the pit from whence we were dragged out of by a merciful God and brought to the knowledge of Christ. And doubtless, we have some remaining sin which we might not even be aware of, that we need to repent of, don't you think?

Psalms 19:7-14 (ASV) "The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring the soul: The testimony of Jehovah is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts of Jehovah are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of Jehovah is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of Jehovah is clean, enduring for ever: The ordinances of Jehovah are true, [and] righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the droppings of the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: In keeping them there is great reward. Who can discern [his] errors? Clear thou me from hidden [faults]. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous [sins]; Let them not have dominion over me: Then shall I be upright, And I shall be clear from great transgression. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in thy sight, O Jehovah, my rock, and my redeemer."

In His grace,

Ok Pilgrim,

I pretty much agree wih you -

I'm an open book kind of guy. I grew up in the RCC, met my wife and joined the NRC which my wife was a member.

The NRC has been viewed by many inside and outside reformed circles as a cult becasue of perceived legalist tendancies.
(I know you and I have talked about this in the past Pilgrim) But any church that holds to a sanctified Lord's Day would be perceived along those lines in my expereince.

I am not an NRC apologist - I see problems and I am very open to criticisms. They encourage no tv's, and a filtered internet provider - but I heard that the high instances of prematrical sex and pregancies has been tied to low morality as exhibited by TV programming (so what is the benefit and need for TV in a CHristian houshold really?).

We can go on and on about the things (carnivals, fairs, circuses, boardwalks, cards, dancing, taverns, etc.) that are considered too worldy for Christian participation.

Pilgrim,

I want to be honest with you - is the emphasis on Christian living taking away from the true Gospel and is the legislation adding to the word of God? What about an overempahsis of experiential preaching? I don't know?!?!

Should I leave? I have to admit I grew up in an unflitered home and was adveresly affected by it so in many regards I am relieved at the encouraged prospect of abstainng and fleaing from the temptations of the world and instruments of sin.

But you are saying the NRC legislates works of morality and Christian living while overemphasing the miserable condition of the natural man? A combination of pious legalism, if you will.

I've read that the NRC follows the model of Christian living after Calvin and his work in Geneva - I'll include a portion of that when I get a moment.

Do you think I should leave? So you are not repeating anything you have already said - I am talking about the NRC specifically - they don't have an actual list that I'm aware of but there is definitely an emphasis on Christian living with a focus on an avoidance of certain activities and endeavors (although there may be differences of opinion from one minister to another - although not drastically)

The Distinctive Theological Indentity of the Netherlands Reformed Congrerations within the Sphere of Reformed Denomination:

p.20-21

...This Second Reformation most strongly promoted the sanctification of life. By way of such holiness, the veracity of both faith and repentance would have to manifest itself. In doing so, the Second Reformation very closely aligned itself with Calvin. Among the Reformers, he was considered to be the man who, more emphatically than others, pointed to the necessity of holiness. This holiness encompasses life in its entirety - personal, domestic, societal, as well as political life, The focus of spiritual life is a future in the presence of the Lord. Calvin, in his well-known Institues writes 5 chapters about the life of the Christian in his 3rd book (6-10)

He who reads these chapters and compares them with the manner in which life in Geneva was subjected to the discipline of God's law, will be struck by the extraordinary seriousness with which the Genevans pursued the life of holiness which the Lord exhorts us to live. Calvin sought to promote sanctification both by way of preaching , in which one is urged to live such a life, as well as the means of the exercise of Christian discipline. The men of the 2nd Reformation also placed full emphasis on this. A comprehensive and thorough treatment on this subject transcends the scope of this article. An entire series of quotes from the writings of our fathers would be at our disposal to demonstrate this point. We quote only some words of Calvin.

EVEN THOUGH THE LAW OF THE LORD PROVIDES THE FINEST AND BEST DISPOSED METHOD OF ORDER OF A MAN'S LIFE, IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HEAVENLY TEACHER TO SHAPE HIS PEOPLE BY AN EVEN MORE EXPLICIT PLAN TO THAT RULE WHICH HE SET FORTH IN THE LAW. THE DUTY OF BELIEVERS IS "TO PRESENT THEIR BODIES TO GOD AS A LIVING SACRIFICE, HOLY AND ACCEPTABLE UNTO HIM," AND IN THIS CONSISTS THE LAWFUL WORSHIP OF HIM (ROMANS 12:1). FROM THIS IS DERIVED THE BASIS OF EXHORTATION THAT THEY BE NOT CONFORMED TO THE FASHION OF THIS WORLD, BUT BE TRANSFORMED BY THE RENEWAL OF THEIR MINDS, SO THAT THEY MAY PROVE WHAT IS THE WILL OF GOD (BOOK 3, CHAP 7, SEC 1)

P.22

The NRC also takes seriously this word of Scripture, expounded by Calvin and others: "the fashion of this world passeth away." The congregations have frequesntly been accusssed of * legalistic zeal * however, unjustly so. A great distinction needs to be made between legalistic zeal and evangelical sanctification. The latter consists of a serious observance of the law of God. This in turn engenders an ardent turning away from a life in which "meditation upon life eternal" is absent. Time and again we are exhorted to live as such, so that by the many things modern life offers us we may not be drawn away from the service to which GOd's Word exhort us.

The simplicity of the life of the congregations has at times been scornfully ridiculed. However, those times when congregational life in the midst of this world drew attnetion were not the worst times. The exhortation not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkeness has long been a component of the distince identitiy of tghe NRC. The Christian ought to be a stranger here below - a PILGRIM who confesses to be but a stranger and pilgrim here, seeking a better country (Hebrews 11:13-14).

However, this did not imply a turning away from one's calling in life. Particularly Rev. GH Kersten has contributed to the realization that in confessing to be "not of the world" it not be forgotton that we are also "in the world" In the realm of the education our congregations have labored with great zeal; in the political realm, the Reformed Political Party became the organization within which the NRC could bring their political responsibility to expression. It thus became very evident that there was not a turning away from the national dimension of being Reformed. In the past a lack of possiblities helped promote an unbilical aversion for the natural life of every day. This was, however, not Reformed. The significance of Rev GH Kersten's influence upon the congregations in this respect ought not to be underestimated

I thought this unanswered thread was also relevant to this discussion

https://www.the-highway.com/forum/showthr...6429&Forum=

Can anyone tell me if John Calvin can be considered a legalist?

AC,

1) I would not be so arrogant to tell you to leave the NRC. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> That's something YOU need to pray about and discuss with others in all seriousness IF it is upon your mind.

2) The criticisms of the NRC haven't all come from Arminian evangelical sources. There are many even in conservative, creedal-believing Reformed churches who see serious problems and have voiced them. My experience with those in the NRC were not good. I witnessed gross spiritual pride, ironically expressed in a voiced lack of assurance of salvation, reluctance even refusal to go to the Lord's Table, morbid introspection and the adherence to a litany of items which were purported to be "worldly" of which one should abstain if they were to live a "holy" life.

3) Advice: Why not contact Dr. Joel Beeke who was once a member of the NRC and left. He helped form the Heritage Reformed Church and its seminary, which btw, is quite good I hear. Is it any surprise that his doctoral dissertation was on the matter of Assurance?

4) The quotes you provided below expectedly put the NRC in a good light as they were written to justify their unique beliefs and practices. And, it shouldn't be surprising that they put themselves on the same plane as Calvin; who would stand against John Calvin after all? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> There is NOTHING inherently evil in a television, a boardwalk, a deck of cards, dancing, alcohol or most of the things some would insist are evil and if you are to live a "holy life", they must be avoided. Do you not see the judgmentalism in this type of thinking? It is classically Pharisaical; imposing one's personal views (right or wrong) upon others and/or judging those who don't conform to those personal views. Extreme Pietism and/or asceticism has no biblical basis. The Scriptures teach if YOUR right hand causes you to sin... What may be a temptation to YOU may not be a temptation to anyone else. It is most always the "weaker brother" who falls into judging his brother. Freedom in Christ makes the Pharisee gnash his teeth; perhaps out of envy?

5) Lastly, there are many biblical passages which speak of the "lusts of the flesh" and of "the world", e.g., Mk 4:19; Joh 8:44; Rom 1:24; 6:12; 13:14; Gal 5:24; Eph 2:3; 4:22; 1Tim 6:9; 2Tim 2:22; 3:6; 4:3; Titus 2:12; 3:3; Jas 4:1,3; 1Pet 1:14; 2:11; 4:2-3; 2Pet 2:18; 3:3; and Jude 1:16,18. Most of them address the disposition of the heart and not in specific OUTWARD things. The error of Pharisaism is two-fold: 1) externalizing sin, and 2) adding to the Law of God which buries conscientious people in guilt and depression who desire to live a holy life but can never seem to achieve any gains due to the impossible burden put upon them by these additions. It creates a "bondage" to the law of man from which Christ came to bring deliverance. Paul testifies that he "delights in the law of God" (Rom 7:22, cf. 7:12). It is not a debilitating slavishness to desire holiness in Christ and to walk in uprightness which some practice with soured faces and even pride themselves in doing so. We shall be sinners for our entire life here on earth. But we are REDEEMED sinners (simul iustus et peccator) by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ Who came that we might have life and that abundantly. (Jh 10:10; Rom 5:20, 21; 2Pet 1:1-11; et al) If you do not have in you the JOY of knowing you are in Christ, having been reconciled to God, adopted as a child of God, given a new name, delivered from the bondage of sin and of condemnation and have a sure hope of an eternal glory, you are to be most pitied. These things sometimes take time to be realized, but they must be there at least in part for they are inherently part of salvation and the work of the Spirit.

In His grace,

Well you highlighted not my main thought, but lets let it go at that. I know the misunderstanding is on my part do to my poor writing skills and failure to communicate my thoughts well. If you are ever in our area on a Lord's day we would love to have you over for a bowl of soup prepaired the day before then perhaps if the Lord gives it we can talk about the things of God. Now if you will excuse me I must continue writing my "Great American Novel".

Well Pilgrim I have a lot to think about.

I don't think anyone is above question and that includes John Calvin, so let me ask you one last question (again) - was he a legalist? (all bowling aside - if that's even true or not).

Thanks Pilgrim

If I come across to forceful I apologize. I am an outspoken, emotional Italian who asks a lot of questions in search of clarifications - every now and then I realize I need to take much of my confusion to the Lord!

I'm gonna PM you about Beeke

Legalist: One who holds that one must DO something in addition to faith in order to be saved, whether it is good works, exercising faith via one's free-will, etc., aka: synergism.

John Calvin was no Legalist, but firmly and tenaciously held to Sola Fide, "By Faith Alone" as a core doctrine of Scripture. Was John Calvin guilty of Pharisaism on some matters? I personally cannot say as I haven't read everything that Calvin wrote. But what I have read I don't recall ever reading where he could be considered have done so. But for your further thinking on this subject, here's a quote from Calvin which I read over 30 years ago from his Institutes of the Christian Religion[/i] which has never left me. You will clearly see that John Calvin stood strongly against the binding of consciences in matters that the Bible considered "adiaphora" (things indifferent) which men have always made a matter of "holiness" to which one must observe.

In His grace,