Please help me to understand.<br><br>I simply don’t understand how you can ask me to worship a being that is going to raise countless millions of people from the dead and give them everlasting bodies just so that he can torture them for all of eternity.<br><br>Excuse me, but it seems to me that you are asking me to worship the most evil being that could ever exist. I just don’t get it. <br><br>Here are just some of the descriptions given by Christian “saints” of what the “good” is going to do to most of his created beings. I just don’t understand how you can expect anyone to worship such a being, really puzzled.<br><br>Jeremy Taylor of the Church of England <br><br>"The bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell, like grapes in a wine-press, which press one another till they burst; every distinct sense and organ shall be assailed with its own appropriate and most exquisite sufferings." <br><br>Jonathan Edwards <br><br>"The world will probably be converted into a great lake or liquid globe of fire, in which the wicked shall be overwhelmed, which will always be in tempest, in which they shall be tossed to and fro, having no rest day and night, vast waves and billows of fire continually rolling over their heads, of which they shall forever be full of a quick sense within and without; their heads, their eyes, their tongues, their hands, their feet, their loins and their vitals, shall forever be full of a flowing, melting fire, fierce enough to melt the very rocks and elements; and also, they shall eternally be full of the most quick and lively sense to feel the torments; not for one minute, not for one day, not for one age, not for two ages, not for a hundred ages, nor for ten thousand millions of ages, one after another, but forever and ever, without any end at all, and never to be delivered." <br><br>Spurgeon <br><br>"When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone; that will be a hell for it, but at the day of judgment they body will join they soul, and then thou wilt have twin hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused with agony. In fire<br>exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed, all they veins roads for the feet of pain to travel on, every nerve a string on which the devil shall forever play his diabolical tune of 'Hell's Unutterable Lament.'" <br><br>From "A Catholic Book for Children" <br><br>"The fifth dungeon is a red-hot oven in which is a little child. Hear how it screams to come out! See how it turns and twists itself about in the fire! It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor on the oven. To this child God was very good. Very likely God saw that this child would get worse and worse, and would never repent, and so it would have to be punished much worse in Hell. So God, in His mercy, called it out of the world in its early childhood." <br><br>C. H. Spurgeon:<br><br>"There is real fire in hell. The body shall be suffused with agony; thy head tormented with racking pains; thine eyes starting from their sockets; thine ears tortured with horrid sounds; thy pulse rattling with anguish; thy limbs crackling in the flame; every vein a pathway for the fire to tread; every nerve a<br>string on which the devil shall forever play the diabolical tune of hell's unutterable lament."<br><br>May God have mercy upon me, but I cannot worship such a being as presented by this Christianity, an evil beyond belief.<br><br>Please, help me to understand how you can believe such evil of God Almighty and His Son Jesus Christ, I just don't get it.<br><br>In all sincerity, <br><br>Help!<br>
What do you expect God to do with evil, unregenerate, God-hating, depraved, murderous, adulterous, slanderous, ...., sinning, unrepentant individuals? Do you not believe in JUSTICE? THESE are merely getting what they deserve, are they not? Do you expect a HOLY God not to serve out true justice for crimes committed against Him? <br><br>What I can't figure is how God could choose to save ANY of us in the first place--for NONE of us is any better than ANY of those above. This reveals to me a very loving and merciful God and one whom I can worship!<br><br>Now (and I mean no offense), please let me ask you a question, Why do you think God should save you? What can you offer God that is worthy of His blessing?
Hmmm.......that would seem to suggest that God should be held to a higher standard than Himself. I agree with Joe, in that we all deserve said punishment. Yet, through Gods grace, He chose some, through His mercy, to save out of this dilemma. the idea that we can judge God with ethical and moral ideals created by man, is putting God in our box.<br><br>Wicked men would have God to be any thing but what he is; nothing that God is really and truly pleaseth them. (John Owen VOL. 7 p.362) <br><br>Indeed, this seems to be the problem today, as always. God justly condemns those who sin, and has no obligation to save any. Here are two loose definitions to help you understand God;<br><br>Soli Deo Gloria: <br>The Triune God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in His being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. He is the sovereign Creator, Ruler, Lawgiver, Redeemer and Judge. All things were made by Him and for Him. He works all things according to His purpose. None of His purposes fail and they all serve to bring honor and glory to His Name alone. Exclusive devotion to this infinitely glorious God is our supreme calling and ultimate happiness. The desire of the Christian is expressed in the words: Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but to Your name give glory. (Psalm 115:1). (See also Isaiah 45:22-23; Romans 11:36; I Corinthians 1:26-31).<br><br>Sola Gratia: <br>The grace of God is His unmerited or undeserved favor towards the sinful and miserable. Our natural condition as sinners who have fallen from the perfection in which we were created in Adam is so depraved and desperate that the only way anyone is ever saved is by God's grace alone. No one is either willing or able to do anything to truly contribute to their salvation and so escape eternal destruction and misery in hell unless God intervenes. All people are spiritually dead unless the Holy Spirit imparts new life and gives 'new birth.' For this reason, Christians take no credit for their faith or good works but confess that it is God's grace alone that makes them different from those who are unbelieving and ungodly. This biblical teaching is explained fully in the Canons of Dort. (See Romans 9:15-16; John 3:5-7; I Corinthians 2:14; 4:7).<br><br><br>God bless,<br><br>william
Hi Joe,<br><br>You asked me: “Now (and I mean no offense), please let me ask you a question, Why do you think God should save you? What can you offer God that is worthy of His blessing?"<br><br>I, like everyone else, am hopelessly lost; there’s absolutely nothing that I can do to save myself! <br><br>Now, what is it that I’m to be saved from, death. Or, this eternal punishment?<br><br>You say: “What I can't figure is how God could choose to save ANY of us in the first place--for NONE of us is any better than ANY of those above. This reveals to me a very loving and merciful God and one whom I can worship!”<br><br>Do your really believe that you deserve to be burned alive forever by a loving god, are your sins so incredible? <br><br>I really don’t understand. I have lived some 60 years, I have met an incredible number of people, yet, I have never met a human being that deserves to be tortured like those Christian “saints” say that god is going to torture people because he cannot or will not save them.<br><br>Satan has brought suffering and death to the whole human race, but it is nothing like what awaits them after they die. According to you, Jesus Christ will torture forever or allow to be tortured the majority of the human race, and this is justice? In one moment, in the fires of hell, Jesus Christ will inflict or allow to be inflicted more pain and agony on each person than Satan inflicted on that person during their entire lifetime. <br><br>If this torture lasts forever then each person will suffer more than all the suffering of all the people that ever lived on earth, many times over.<br><br>Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler, the devil himself, name the worst that have ever lived on this earth, the most evil people or beings that have ever lived, you make Jesus Christ a billions times, infinite times, more vicious an vindictive than all the evil men that have ever lived. And, this is justice?<br><br>Please, I just don’t get it, I cannot worship such a being. Please, I'm begging you, help me understand this, do your really believe that God Almighty will do such as thing?<br><br>
Hello averagefella, <br><br>You wrote: "Hmmm.......that would seem to suggest that God should be held to a higher standard than Himself."<br><br>Forgive me, but I have no idea what you mean!<br><br>You wrote: "Wicked men would have God to be any thing but what he is; nothing that God is really and truly pleaseth them."<br><br>I'm not really sure what you mean here, do you mean that I'm evil because I believe that it is wrong to torture people, to burn them alive forever?<br><br>Sincerely, I belive that torture is evil no matter who inflicts it, and to try to make evil into good is beyond my ability.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Please, I just don’t get it, I cannot worship such a being. Please, I'm begging you, help me understand this, do your really believe that God Almighty will do such as thing?
Why is it that I cannot openly and easily accept that your "begging" is sincere? I mean no offense, but really.. if you are at least 60 years old and have wrestled or contemplated these things for a good portion of your life, would it not be likely that you have posed these questions to a myriad other people who profess Christianity? And assuming that this is true, in all likelihood, you have heard basically the same answers which have been given to you here and will be forthcoming. Nevertheless, you have asked the question(s) and I do believe you are entitled to a BIBLICAL answer. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]
Let's clear up one thing straight away, shall we? Nowhere in all of God's written Word can it be found that God is going to TORTURE human beings and/or their souls. What the Scripture teaches is that the wicked are going to suffer by virtue of justice being done for who they are and for what evil they have thought, said and done against God and their fellow men. Now, you may then find it difficult to comprehend how a human being, even "Pharaoh, Nero and Hitler" could be so wicked as to deserve eternal punishment. You have basically questioned this aspect of justice, calling into question even the use of the term, "justice" to describe biblical eternal punishment. May I suggest that the problem is that you lack in a proper and biblical understanding of the doctrine of God? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img] If you had even an inkling of who this God is, Who has revealed Himself to mankind in the Scriptures, the difficulty you are currently expressing would be a moot point. Risking that my next statement will be woefully inadequate, let me say that it is quite simple to see. For the true and living God is INFINITELY HOLY, and thus to rebel against Him and to transgress His law is INFINITELY OFFENSIVE and the only just punishment that could be expected would be INFINITE in scope and duration. You know..... equal - equal? In short, eternal punishment of the wicked does not transcend the crime committed. It is equitable. Secondly, if you had even an inkling of the depth of depravity which all men possess at conception, this issue of eternal punishment would be a moot issue. To be quite honest, personally I sometimes think that eternal punishment is actually far less than what is deserved and that it is actually less than just from God's perspective. But, knowing also that God is just (Gen 18:25), I accept that eternal punishment of the wicked is equitable. Thirdly, the punishment which Christ endured was exactly that which the elect should have and would have had to endure if they were to have to give an account before the court of God. Thus, God Himself, underwent and suffered no less than any single individual who has been, is now or ever will be saved. But, we must also remember, that the punishment which the Lord Christ endured upon the cross was exponentially more severe than any single human being will be given. For He took upon Himself the punishment due to the ENTIRE COMPANY of the elect. Thus, there can be no charge of injustice launched against God. For He Himself, being innocent of any transgression, has suffered far beyond what anyone shall suffer and justly for their sins.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Satan has brought suffering and death to the whole human race, but it is nothing like what awaits them after they die.
It was not "Satan" who brought suffering and death to the whole human race, but man himself who is guilty of doing so. Satan simply tempted Eve and consequently Adam, who was the Federal Head of the human race to transgress God's direct command. Thus all the sorrow, pain, suffering, physical death and eventual eternal death belongs to man, not Satan. Mankind has itself to blame for all that is evil. Yet, "While were yet sinners, Christ died for us!. If it were not for the love, mercy and grace of God, not ONE single human being would be exempt from the wrath of God and being cast into eternal torment. Justice has been rendered for those whom God has taken pity upon in the Redeemer, Christ Jesus. And justice will be rendered to all those who are not found clothed in garments of righteousness of Christ Jesus. The overtures of grace are proclaimed to all. Yet, left to themselves, no man can or ever will repent of their sins and trust in Christ so as to be declared righteous, to receive the remission of sins, to be reconciled to God and adopted as sons of the Most High God. Whatever punishment men may receive at the Judgment, know this... it is most deserved.
Justlooking:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Sincerely, I belive that torture is evil no matter who inflicts it, and to try to make evil into good is beyond my ability.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Philosophically speaking, this is not true. While it is wrong for humans to unjustly torture others, it is not wrong for God to justly punish wicked sinners. Nothing God does is evil, by definition. God would still be just even if He tortured every person for no reason (not that He would), because we are His possession (and because there is no standard by which He can be judged). <br><br>It probably won't please your ears or sooth your soul, but God is not a man and you cannot judge Him like one. You also cannot think so lightly of sin. God's view of sin is far more negative than most of humans' views (ironic, considering that we're the ones guilty of sin and, therefore, at His mercy). We are pots and He may do with us as He wills; we are sinners deserving of wrath; so I must agree with Joe that we are most fortunate that God is as merciful as He is to spare any. Ultimately though (and, with Joe again, no offense intended), you're probably not looking for philosophic answers so much as something that pleases you.
You wrote: “Why is it that I cannot openly and easily accept that your "begging" is sincere? I mean no offense, but really.. if you are at least 60 years old and have wrestled or contemplated these things for a good portion of your life, would it not be likely that you have posed these questions to a myriad other people who profess Christianity? "<br><br>I’m sorry that you do not believe that I’m sincere in my questioning, there’s nothing that I can do about that. This attitude of yours tends to get us off to a bad start. You question my sincerity without reason, I suppose that it's an alpha male thing or something, I don't know why your first words to me would be so confrontational. It's quite a surprise.<br><br>I did not state that I have “wrestled or contemplated these things” for a good portion of my life, actually I accepted the doctrine of “hell” without really thinking about it, that’s what the preachers preached, so that must be the truth!<br><br>You wrote: ”And assuming that this is true, in all likelihood, you have heard basically the same answers which have been given to you here and will be forthcoming. Nevertheless, you have asked the question(s) and I do believe you are entitled to a BIBLICAL answer." <br><br>Again, you assume too much, I have not asked those that profess to be teachers of Christianity about this evil that they teach.<br><br>You wrote: "Let's clear up one thing straight away, shall we? Nowhere in all of God's written Word can it be found that God is going to TORTURE human beings and/or their souls." <br><br>I simply don't understand this at all, is God Almighty? Is God in control? Is God the source of Salvation? How can you say that God is not the one, according to your view of Christianity, that is going to punish. If God is not going to do the things that the preachers teach, who is? <br><br>I quoted Christian teachers in my original post, are they wrong in their teachings? Is this burning alive forever not a doctrine of “Orthodox” Christianly?<br><br>You wrote: "What the Scripture teaches is that the wicked are going to suffer by virtue of justice being done for who they are and for what evil they have thought, said and done against God and their fellow men. Now, you may then find it difficult to comprehend how a human being, even "Pharaoh, Nero and Hitler" could be so wicked as to deserve eternal punishment. You have basically questioned this aspect of justice, calling into question even the use of the term, "justice" to describe biblical eternal punishment."<br><br>Not only do I question the justice of infinite punishment for finite crimes but, least we get off the subject, I question how you can make two wrongs a right. If it is wrong, evil, for Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler to have done what they did, how can you justify such evil that is described by Christian teachers, God burning people alive forever. How can you not see that evil is evil, if what Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler did is evil, then how can you possible justify eternal torment. Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler could only torment their victims until they died physically, you would have people worship a god that gives eternal life so that he can torment people forever and ever!<br><br>You wrote: "To be quite honest, personally I sometimes think that eternal punishment is actually far less than what is deserved and that it is actually less than just from God's perspective."<br><br>This statement of yours gave me great anguish, it is so difficult for me to believe that any human being would wish upon another, and think that it just, that any human being be punished in fire forever like these Christian teachers taught. I really find it hard to believe that you believe that human beings in all of there frailties deserve to be tormented forever. I’m trying to visualize what kind of person could believe such a thing and I simply cannot.<br><br>You wrote: "Thirdly, the punishment which Christ endured was exactly that which the elect should have and would have had to endure if they were to have to give an account before the court of God. Thus, God Himself, underwent and suffered no less than any single individual who has been, is now or ever will be saved."<br><br>As I understand it, Jesus Christ was in grave for 3 day, not forever! He was not burned alive forever and ever.<br><br>You wrote: "Whatever punishment men may receive at the Judgment, know this... it is most deserved."<br><br>The Bible teaches that the reason people do not believe the gospel is because Satan "the god of this age" has blinded them and they cannot see, they cannot understand.<br><br>Burning people alive forever, like these teachers taught, is evil, it doesn't matter who does it, evil is evil. To say that men are evil because they do evil but god is good even though he is going to punish people with fire forever is very difficult for me to understand.<br><br>I’m really surprised by the confrontational tone of your reply to me, if I have offended, with my question, in anyway, I apologize. I simply cannot understand how evil is turned into good through Christian doctrine. I cannot worship a god that is going to burn people alive forever, something is very wrong.<br>
Hi,<br><br>I’m really not looking for something that pleases me, I’m looking for the truth of this matter. <br><br>You wrote: “Philosophically speaking, this is not true. While it is wrong for humans to unjustly torture others, it is not wrong for God to justly punish wicked sinners. Nothing God does is evil, by definition. God would still be just even if He tortured every person for no reason (not that He would), because we are His possession (and because there is no standard by which He can be judged). It probably won't please your ears or sooth your soul, but God is not a man and you cannot judge Him like one.<br><br>This is an incredible statement! No one is trying to judge God, it is good and evil that is to be judged. Is it evil to burn people alive or not? Apparently, according to you, it is only evil according to who does it? During the inquisition, priests thought they were doing God’s will by torturing people, they thought that their evil was good because they were doing it in God’s name. Religions have done this throughout the ages. <br><br>Is it evil to burn people alive forever or not?<br><br>Do you really believe that burning people alive, people that have been deceived all of their lives, people that don’t know up from down, is not evil?<br>
" When I say unto the wicked, Oh wicked man, thou shalt surley die ; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked man from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity ; but his blood will I require at thine hand. <br><br> Never the less, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.<br><br> Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; thus ye speak, saying, if our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?<br><br> Say unto them, as I live, sayeth the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, oh house of Israel ?<br><br> Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, the righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression : as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness ; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.<br><br> When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surley live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and comit iniquity, all his righteousness shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.<br><br> Again, when I say unto the wicked, thou shalt surley die; if he turn from his sin and do that which is lawful and right ; <br><br> If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he hath robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without comitting iniquity ; he shall surley live, he shall not die.<br><br> None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: He hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live." Ezekiel 33 : 8-16 kjv<br>
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I, like everyone else, am hopelessly lost; there’s absolutely nothing that I can do to save myself! </font><hr></blockquote><p> Well your statement has some truth in it. Everyone is hopelessly lost until certain ones are enabled by God’s grace to believe. But, after they are saved they are full of hope for they know of know greater thing that could have transpired in their lives. It is good that you acknowledge, [color:blue] there’s absolutely nothing that I can do to save myself</font color=blue>. May I ask, how you came to this conclusion?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Now, what is it that I’m to be saved from, death. Or, this eternal punishment?</font><hr></blockquote><p> Well “eternal death” is a state in which “eternal punishment” is measured out. Thus, to be saved would be to saved from both and much, much more. But, that is merely one side—what one is saved “from”. An individual is saved “to” something as well— eternal life in which eternal blessings are measured out and much, much more.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Do your really believe that you deserve to be burned alive forever by a loving god, are your sins so incredible? </font><hr></blockquote><p> YES. One of our problems as humans is that we do not understand how much even one sin offends the HOLY God of the universe. God is so HOLY (to an extent that we cannot fathom) that “one” sin by “us” is enough that He must, according to His nature, either measure out just punishment (eternal death…) or provide some other means of payment. God is loving, but He does not love sin. God is also just and thus must also measure our appropriate justice for crimes (sins) committed.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I really don’t understand. I have lived some 60 years, I have met an incredible number of people, yet, I have never met a human being that deserves to be tortured like those Christian “saints” say that god is going to torture people because he cannot or will not save them.</font><hr></blockquote><p> God will save all He has predestined to save. He is all-powerful and will accomplish that which He has set out to do. Pilgrim answered your question about “torture”. There is a difference in “torture” and just punishment. Just punishment is what God is entitled to measure out and must measure out, according to His nature.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Satan has brought suffering and death to the whole human race, but it is nothing like what awaits them after they die. </font><hr></blockquote><p> There is some truth here to what you state: Satan brought suffering and death to the whole human race. But, I must quickly and biblically add that man “freely accepted” sin and death that Satan tempted man with (Gen 3) over and against eternal life that God offered in the Garden. You are right, the suffering and death that awaits the unrepentant after this life cannot be fully fathomed, but it is just, for God is a just and perfect Being.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]According to you, Jesus Christ will torture forever or allow to be tortured the majority of the human race, and this is justice? In one moment, in the fires of hell, Jesus Christ will inflict or allow to be inflicted more pain and agony on each person than Satan inflicted on that person during their entire lifetime.</font><hr></blockquote><p> We have already discussed your term “torture,” thus I will not entertain it here. Here though you also have blamed God for man’s own sin. You are attempting to make God out the bad guy, but again, God is just in His punishment. It is His universe. He makes the rules. A judge who hands out a death penalty to a murderer is not considered unjust. The murderer is receiving his just reward for he has taken another human being life. God is just as He would never hand out a punishment that was not warranted and just. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]If this torture lasts forever then each person will suffer more than all the suffering of all the people that ever lived on earth, many times over.</font><hr></blockquote><p> Here you have made the assumption that man stops sinning after he enters hell, but that would mean that some how he became glorified aside from God’s redemptive act. Unregenerate man keeps sinning, even in hell, and thus hell is for eternity—which is just since he keeps on sinning.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler, the devil himself, name the worst that have ever lived on this earth, the most evil people or beings that have ever lived, you make Jesus Christ a billions times, infinite times, more vicious an vindictive than all the evil men that have ever lived. And, this is justice?</font><hr></blockquote><p> The individuals you have named were indeed evil and manifested more evil than many others have. But, once again everyone of us is capable of the same horrors as these above and more, because of our depraved states. God restrains much of our sin (and Satan himself) from manifesting forth all that we/he is capable of. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Please, I just don’t get it, I cannot worship such a being. Please, I'm begging you, help me understand this, do your really believe that God Almighty will do such as thing?</font><hr></blockquote><p> If your pleas here are sincere, then I suggest that you cry out to God to give you a heart of understanding. Salvation comes first then “completion” (more so in glory than now, but at least an understanding now that can be rested upon and enjoyed…) of your understanding. <br><br>Our prayers are with you.
You have continued to equate justice with evil because you have maintained that the punishment promised to the wicked is "torture", e.g., you wrote:
You [Pilgrim] wrote: "Let's clear up one thing straight away, shall we? Nowhere in all of God's written Word can it be found that God is going to TORTURE human beings and/or their souls."
I simply don't understand this at all, is God Almighty? Is God in control? Is God the source of Salvation? How can you say that God is not the one, according to your view of Christianity, that is going to punish. If God is not going to do the things that the preachers teach, who is?
But this is a self-imposed view and has nothing to do with truth nor reality. I affirmed that God is going to mete out [color:red]PUNISHMENT. And then you immediately equate punishment with TORTURE. So, once again I must tell you that the two terms are not synonyms. And, if it is of any consolation to you, it is not certain that the flames spoken of in the Bible to describe Hell are physical flames. My personal understanding is that the Bible speaks of flames symbolically, as in a parable, to describe something which otherwise could not be comprehended. Thus the "flames of hell" are descriptive of the punishment that awaits the wicked, i.e., Hell will be unbearable. But Hell is not a place where one would see humans roasting over an open fire for eternity. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img]
I'm also curious as to who these "teachers of Christianity" are that you mentioned a few times? You obviously accept them as being paradigmatic of all who profess to be Christian teachers and their teaching is representative of all who profess to be Christians. I would certainly accept Jonathan Edwards' teaching on hell to be biblical sound, if that is of any help to you? I would offer to you also two articles which are faithful to the teaching of God's Word:
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Not only do I question the justice of infinite punishment for finite crimes . . .
[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/hello.gif" alt="hello" title="hello[/img] Have you read anything that I have written to you? The sins committed by man against GOD are infinite in scope and thus deserve infinite punishment. Further, you have totally dismissed and/or ignored the fact that primarily, men are going to be cast into eternal hell not because of what they have done, but rather because of who they ARE!! The reprobate are INFINITELY wicked because the very nature of all men from conception onward is depraved, corrupt, evil, wicked, vile, etc. Thus ALL that men do by nature is sinful; sin being the expression of their beings. So, unless the Sovereign Lord recreates a man's nature, he will continue to hate God and all that is good for eternity. Thus, infinite punishment is without question, JUST! Let me include the text of Gen 18:25 this time so that you cannot miss it.
(ASV) "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
The context is the impending and imminent destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by God upon the wicked of that city. Abraham tried to bargain with God in the hope of sparing the city by appealing to God's sense of justice. In short, Abraham's argument was that it would not be just to destroy the entire city when there might be righteous men living there; even if there were but 5 among them. Abraham never argued against nor rejected the principle of justice and punishment upon the wicked. In the N.T., the very same God Who Abraham spoke to on the plains of Mamre also spoke to the Pharisees and common Jew of the first century and He continues to speak to us today in and through His infallible Word.
Matthew 11:20-27 (ASV) "Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which were done in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And thou, Capernaum, shalt thou be exalted unto heaven? thou shalt go down unto Hades: for if the mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in thee, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight. All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.]"
Mark 6:11 (KJV) "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city."
That which happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is used as an example of the punishment coming upon all who refuse to repent and turn to God by casting themselves down and trusting in Christ Jesus the Lord and His substitutionary work. The suffering which came upon the residents of those two cities is said to be "tolerable" compared to the suffering which is to come to all the unrepentant. The most pressing issue for you today is not whether there will be eternal torment and if it is just, but Will you repent and turn to God in Christ Jesus the Lord? Even if there was no endless punishment or even any punishment, to be reconciled to God is of primary importance.
Lastly, I would really like to know what it is that you believe concerning:[*]What will be the end of mankind?[*]Life after death: Does it exist?[*]Is it necessary that justice be executed upon mankind? Does there need to be a final accountability for one's life?[*]Do you believe in a "god"? If so, could you describe it/him for me?[*]What source(s) do you consult to find truth?[*]Do you believe that there IS absolute truth; true truth, propositional truth? and that it is knowable?[/LIST]
In reply to:[color:"blue"]I’m really surprised by the confrontational tone of your reply to me, if I have offended, with my question, in anyway, I apologize. I simply cannot understand how evil is turned into good through Christian doctrine. I cannot worship a god that is going to burn people alive forever, something is very wrong.
We do agree on one thing..... you CANNOT (inability) and WILL NOT (refusal) worship the one true God Who has revealed Himself in Scripture because you hate Him with your whole being. You consider Him to be "evil" and a despicable being because He has promised and will render justice to all who are at enmity with Him. What is wrong is your understanding of what is "good", what is "evil", the magnitude of "depravity" of the human soul, the incomprehensibility of the "holiness" of God, etc.
JustLooking,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I’m really not looking for something that pleases me, I’m looking for the truth of this matter.</font><hr></blockquote><p>I've been reading your replies in this thread and have two questions for you.<br><br>1. If you are not looking for something that please you then why do you find fault with the justice of God?<br><br>2. If you are sincerely looking for the truth why do you reject it when it displeases you?<br><br>Others in this thread have provided you with a Biblical answer to your questions. You have rejected these answers because you find them displeasing to you. Do you think that God should adjust His thinking to yours? <br><br>If you ruled the world what would you do with sin? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/shrug.gif" alt="shrug" title="shrug[/img]<br><br><br>Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Hi Wes,<br><br>You wrote:<br><br>"I've been reading your replies in this thread and have two questions for you.<br><br>1. If you are not looking for something that please you then why do you find fault with the <br><br>justice of God?<br><br>2. If you are sincerely looking for the truth why do you reject it when it displeases you?<br><br>Others in this thread have provided you with a Biblical answer to your questions. You have <br><br>rejected these answers because you find them displeasing to you. Do you think that God <br><br>should adjust His thinking to yours? <br><br>If you ruled the world what would you do with sin?"<br><br>I don't find any fault with the justice of God, but I do question, as I have stated, the torment <br><br>that Christian preachers say God is going to inflict opon countless millions of human beings <br><br>for ever and ever. <br><br>Evil is evil, the torment that Christians teach God is going to inflict upon human beings, <br><br>burning with fire forever, is evil. Can't you see that it is evil? Are you trying to turn evil, <br><br>burning people alive forever, into good?<br><br>You ask me what I would do if I ruled the world, assuming that I had the power I would heal <br><br>the world of sin.<br>
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