The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum House church vs corporate worship

I have another question which concerns the house church. I am weary of the arguments for supporting the house church such as the early church did it that way etc. We have individuals in our church who will come to the Sunday morning service but not the Sunday night or the Wed. night prayer meeting, stating that they have the small group meetings and that takes the place of gathering as a congregation those other nights (we average 6 people for prayer meeting and 10 for Sunday nights).

The early church would have loved to have the privilege to be able to worship as one body in one location, but because of persecution they couldn't. I'm just tired of the small group mentality promoted to supercede the whole body worship. I believe Bible study is great but shouldn't take the place of regular hours of worship. I believe to forsake assembling when the body comes together is harmful to the body as a whole and in my thought borders on sin against the body. It may sound as though I have it in for our church,or I'm a legalist, but that is not the case at all, it just gets frustrating to be the only person who thinks the church's blessing is dependent on what we do. Our church has been struggling, and I believe that is because of the mindset of the leadership which trickles down to the layman. I pray, I stay faithful, but it isn't easy when we are all alone. The congregation is unable to see that our struggles are a direct result of our attitude concerning the operation of the church.

Who else thinks that if we have the opportunity to worship in a group environment without fear of persecution,that should be the priority? That not to attend other than for real unavoidable reasons, borders on sinning against the body? I spoke to the pastor and the chairman of the board of deacons but was basically ignored.

What is the best approach to get the leaders to see it is necessary to be more faithful without them getting angry? I don't want to force them to come when they don't have the heart to be there, because that wouldn't be pleasing to God. It must be a desire from a willing heart and only God can bring that about, but the stubborness of the people is destructive. The individualistic attitude of the church takes precedence over care and concern for the whole body, more splintering. I mentioned about leaders being removed from office if they aren't faithful, but that was rejected. One reason, because there aren't any leaders that are faithful to all the services so they would all need to be removed. Sorry for the negativity, but I truly want to see our church grow spiritually, but it can't when there are obstacles in the way.

Hisalone,

It is funny how people like to pick from the early church what they like and leave the rest. I often hear people (mostly theologians) say that we can't mimic the early church when it comes to matters such as the role of women in the church but at the same time they want to mimic the early church in the house church or the small groups thing.

I am also pretty fed up with the over emphasizing of small groups. There can perhaps also be a positive side about small groups, eg. that people care for each other. But do you need formal small groups for that? Shouldn't we care for each other in any case? In our church there was a special effort using Rick Warren's PDL to establish small groups. The motivation for this was that everything centers around relationally driven ministery. Our pastor's idea is that all in life involves relationships with other people. Of course that is correct. We interact with other people from the day we're born.

We used to have a ward system in our church. Traditionally wards had geographical boundaries. That later changed to let people decide with whom they want to be grouped in a ward, and now it is a mixed system with wards and small groups. But it is clear that the emphasis in the ministry is on the small groups. Special meetings are being held just to keep the small groups going. Since I know a lot of people in our church and know more or less who belongs to which small group, it is clear to me that the small groups are nothing else than groups of friends. When we had wards with geographical boundaries, I knew which church members live in my area. Now I don't. So, if it is a large church, you may not even know that your neighbour goes to the same church because he or she or the family may belong to some small group with their friends.

Somewhere on the internet I read that research has shown that churches where the ministry revolves around small groups are also the fastest growing churches.

At the moment there are some practical reasons why we don't belong to a small group. But I also don't feel the need to belong to a small group either. My son and his family are also in our church and initially belonged to such a small group. They told us that very little real Bible study is being done in the group. People rather would like to see these meetings just as a get together. So when they criticized how things are going and decided to leave the group, the rest of the group also sort of ignored them. So, is this how it was with the house churches in the apostolic times? I guess they had their ups and downs but I am pretty sure they were not closed groups of friends.

Johan

Just a quick reply based on my experience.

Making decisions that effect the congregation as a whole is very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very...... well you get the picture..... difficult.

My first question I guess would be.... how do we decide when and where we worship together?

My second question would be, how do we make decisions that effect everyone?

My third question is, what type of authority is established with each individual congregational member before they join the church?

These are just some of the questions you really need to ask before you start to get frustrated by peoples lack of participation.

I can speak for myself when I say that I'm a father with three girls. My oldest girl and myself are involved with a travel softball team. I also have other serious commitments as well as my wife. So to be perfectly honest, I would not join a church that required myself and my family to attend worship Sunday morning, night and Wed night and then expect me to be apart of a small group on top of that. But that is just my opinion, but what I'm trying to get at here is I'm sure that your church might have members who might have busy schedules as well.


But.... before I go.... let me try to give my thoughts on the original concern.

I for one support small groups.... I don't know the size of your church, but mine is pretty big. There are a lot of reason that I support small groups and why I'm a small group leader.

The main reason is that I believe people who belong to a small group that is really trying to obey the Word of God will be loved, administered too, helped, prayed for and cared about a lot more then they would be in the general assembly. But again, I go to a large church... smaller churches might not need small groups.

Dave

I am encouraged by Johan's response, that I'm not alone in my thoughts. As for the size of the church, I believe that within the corporate body there can still be relationships. I came from a church that emphasized the prayer meeting, which was pretty much attended by all. The time of prayer was broken up into groups of two or three, always trying to pray with a different person each time. This built good relationships within the church. There were undershepherding groups which met quarterly on Sunday nights led by the deacons, each deacon having responsibility for their church families assigned them. The deacons were chosen based on faithfulness, and understanding of the doctrines of grace, not by popularity vote.

One of the problems with the small group goes with my previous post about teachers, there are leaders of these groups who have no teaching skills. I tried to get involved with them but couldn't stomach it, so dropped out of the group. Another problem I noticed is that there isn't any accountablity with the groups. Heresy can be taught or just plain fluff, the teaching more geared toward the experiencial than doctrinal. Sharing what God is doing in our lives, the struggles I'm facing and the prayer I need instead of focusing on what the church is about, God and His glory. Sometimes they can become real pity parties, reminded me of an AA meeting. Don't think I'm cold or heartless, it is just that the focus wouldn't be on ourselves if we were getting sound teaching. Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him! Again, I'm just tired of where our church is headed. Our church started out good about a year ago, but recently it has slowly been dying. It is like being onboard a sinking ship with everyone going about their own business not recognizing the peril we are in. God's church will not fail, but I believe the local congregation can, and will fail if our hearts are not right.

One of the most frustrating things that I've come across in different churches was the lack of consideration by the pastorate to work with people and their concerns.

The prevalent attitude I've found with most Church Leaders and Pastors is; sure I'll go have breakfast with you and listen to you, but at the end of the day, we're still going to do what I want.

hisalone, I do strongly agree with your assessment of small group leaders. One of the battles I find myself in frequently with my own church is that I believe that small group leaders should be ordained elders and they should be gifted in the area of being a leader, teacher and caregiver.

But to be fair, it's always hard for every church to exercise peoples gifts the right way.

Here is what I see from your two previous posts. Just by reading your two posts, I can easily come to the conclusion that you have a heart for God and His people, your brothers and sisters.

That is plain to see and it should be very obvious to your Pastorate and fellow Church leaders. So do what is in your power to do...... continue to express yourself to them in a loving way and continue to keep it in prayer. Then rely on God to work in their hearts. But don't give up. Keep taking to them, they really should be concerned about your feelings and if they don't agree with you, they should at least have treat you with respect and sit down with you and explain why they are doing what they're doing. Just try not to get upset with them, because that really won't help matters. Most Pastors and church leaders have way to much on their plate and the last thing they want to deal with is an irate member from the congregation.

Dave

From God's direction given in His infallible Word. We know the "when" most assuredly; the first day of the week, Sunday, which is the Sabbath of the Lord. (Isa 58:13, 14) This day, the entire day, is to be set apart (holy) unto the Lord in which the people of God are to a) join in corporate worship, b) do works of mercy, and c) do works of necessity. See here: WCF XXI - Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day.

As to the "where", that is not regulated other than by general precepts and principles which would cover such things as regarding sin, etc.


Who are the "we"? It has been given to the Elders and Deacons of Christ's Church to make such decisions. Secondly, these men are to consider the congregation over which they are to rule and care for with much prayer and discernment with the primary concern that everything be done according to that which God has set forth in His written Word and for His glory. (Aside: Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats?.

I'm not sure I understand this question. When one joins a church, that member oaths before God (this should be done publicly) to submit to the ruling authority of that assembly, i.e., the Elders who are given to rule over it. If this isn't what you are asking, could you please restate it so that I might understand you rightly?

I'm going to assume that these other commitments you have do not involve your participation on the Sabbath? One who has been redeemed by Christ and seeks to honor God in all things by conforming every thought, word and deed to His holy law will most desire to cease from all labor and recreation on the Lord's Day and meet corporately with like-minded fellow believers to offer up biblical worship unto Him. Should the assembly you are attending have both morning and evening worship, then it would be incumbent upon you to attend both. If these other activities to which you are involved are during the week, it would be a matter of priorities, IMHO. Which is more important to you... e.g., meeting with other believers for a time of prayer or playing basketball with neighbors? Meeting with some of the men of the church to study a portion or theme, or whatever, in God's Word so as to grow in grace or to watch a pro football game that falls on that same day each week? Some would regulate their personal lives around the activities of the church while others would regulate their church activities around their own personal lives. Whatcha think?

In His grace,

All very good comments by everyone and I was blessed spiritually reading the replies, I was in the dumps, frustrated and ready to say enough, but I'm glad to hear I'm not alone. BTW, I am a Sunday School teacher, I occassionally give the message and also I'm a deacon, but in my church I feel like the lone ranger when it comes to being faithful. I have been treated as though I have the plague and an outcast. Dave, thanks for your kind words, I really do want the body to experience the joy of the Lord, not just go through the motions each week.

Sadly, my Sunday school class is held in the back of the church so nobody sees it unless I seek individuals out. The 5 individuals that come love it but I unable to get anyone else interested. The other classes that the women teach are better attended, and nothing against women, but the teaching is horrible, but it is what people like. They use bible study books where I create my own lessons line by line through books of the bible. I also do the Wed. night devotionals, working through the non-negotiable doctrines of the faith. Again, I get good feedback that individuals are being benefited by it. As a deacon, I have been trying to avoid conflict and I guess you could say I'm not angry, just very frustrated. I was told a long time ago to not let resentment through the door and so far I have avoided that. Again, sorry for the negativity,but your replies have done a Christian service to my soul. I know from reading this you probably think my teaching is bad and that is the problem, but it isn't that, it is just people don't like to hear the truth. I had one deacon actually say I talk too much about sin and shake the faith of people. I just believe until we understand sin, we'll never understand our God and His Son as we should.


God Bless,
Hisalone

hisalone,

I agree with you. From my experience, people who are keen on the house church movement tend to have problems with accepting someone with authority over them or being accountable to the church at large.