linda:" boy isn't that the truth!" Maybe it would be a good idea if all participants would address the posts to whom they are replying? Just a suggestion...
Daniel: I think that eternal seperation from God may remove even thoughs that we have now, and of course ignorance is bliss.<br><br>THis is after judgment when all have received their rewards - fitting the deeds and attitudes and most of all responses to Jesus while in the body. They will remmember all they need to, don't you think?
Pilgrim: (There appears to be both a "departing" TO "eternal fire" and not just a departing FROM God)<br><br>seya: "Our [very] God is a consuming fire." ! Heb 12:29 <br>Think of the burning bush that was not consumed. <br>Of Peter who wrote ep 1,v 1 "That the trial of your faith, [being much more precious than of gold that is perishable,] though it be tried with FIRE, might be found unto praise and honor and glory, at the appearing of Jesus Christ." Spiritual things indeed are spiritually discerned.<br>
When I think of the hell that my unbelieving friends and acquaintances will have to endure if they remain unrepentant, it is the separation from the fellowship with God that most moves me in my desires for them and the in little I know of the joy of that fellowship as a believer until the day that we see Him as He is.<br><br>Clay <br>An altogether edifying post. Thank you.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I Cor 1:12-14</font><hr></blockquote><p>seya,<br><br>Methinks you really meant 1Cor 2:12-14? Secondly, that hardly serves to answer Prestor John's question. Simply typing in a biblical passage, wrongly at that, without any explanation of how you are interpreting it isn't conducive to an edifying exchange of ideas. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rolleyes.gif" alt="rolleyes" title="rolleyes[/img]<blockquote>1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (ASV) "But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual [words]. Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged."</blockquote>It seems to me that this passage has nothing whatsoever to do with "hermeneutics", i.e., how we are to interpret the Bible. But rather, it is a testimony to the ORIGIN of the divinely inspired text through the instrumentality of human writers. Paul is saying that what he writes wasn't sourced out from worldly philosophers, dialecticians, or psychics, but contrariwise, what he has learned and thus writes came from and through the Holy Spirit, thus "spiritual things" (divine and absolute truth) penned in "spiritual words" (from the Spirit). He had already established that what he wrote was "wisdom" (2:6), which came from God. The fact that Paul penned his letters in human language goes against any idea that "spiritual words" means some "ethereal language of the Spirit", for it is to be discerned by the grammar of the reader aided by the Spirit Who then applies those words to the heart as they are understood with the mind.<br><br>The remainder of the passage, v. 14 deals with the inability of the natural man; i.e., one who has not the indwelling of the Spirit to comprehend the truth of the Apostle's, thus the Spirit's words, nor receive (accept them as true), for only those who have the indwelling of the Spirit will even find God's revelation desirable, never mind acceptable and applicable as a life-changing source.<br><br>It has already been granted by the majority of responders in this thread that the "fire" referred to in the passages quoted is mostly likely not physical fire but illustrative of the torment which one experiences when thrust into physical fire. The fact remains that the majority of texts which speak of hell, speak of an actual torment, suffering, etc., which is beyond the ability of men's minds to fully grasp. It is separate and transcends mere "separation" and its consequential "loneliness" that you are advocating.<br><br>I also find it ironic that you dismiss the "reasoning of men" insofar as their interpreting the inspired text, but you totally obfuscate the biblical text by appealing to fallacious human reasoning when you appeal to God, who is full of mercy, as the sole ground for dismissing what is clearly taught in them. Although it will not be argued that God is merciful and slow to anger, this does not disprove that He is equally, and I would suggest even more so, HOLY and JUST. His thrice Holy character is that which He holds as the standard of all that is good and righteous. And those who have transgressed His holy law will be accountable and subject to it at the Judgment.<br><br>Perhaps it would be beneficial if you would interact with the biblical texts which have been offered in this thread which the historic Church has overwhelmingly understood to mean that which you find so offensive; so offensive in fact, that you have seen fit to draw a dividing line between yourself, as the "spiritual one" and everyone else who holds to a literal hell as a place of eternal torment of the wicked and labeling them as "nonspiritual", implying even that we all are doomed for that alleged "separation" of which you believe will be their end.<br><br>In His Grace,
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<span style="background-color:yellow;">It is tragic that of all people, those who claim to be his, should even think of him in connection with deliberate, long-planned torture.</span> It should boggle the minds of atheists. God the Father in fact is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and plenteous in mercy. <span style="background-color:yellow;">Eternal separation from such an One is quite enough; heartfelt regret is part of that eternal punishment.</span> Read the posts and weep: most of even those who claim to be renewed in God's image sound as if they have buried their one talent and your god and theirs turns out to be 'a hard man'. Mt 25:24 </font><hr></blockquote><p> While I think the term "torture" is [color:red]not</font color=red> a biblical term for the [color:blue]eternal sufferings</font color=blue> of hell there is none the less SUFFERING. Where does the Bible say that God IS or WILL BE "eternally" merciful to the unrepentant? Did Jesus lie when He said:<br><br><blockquote>Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: [color:red]there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth</font color=red>. <br><br>Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: [color:red]there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth</font color=red>.</blockquote> When do the unrepentant EVER STOP sinning? Thus, when will their suffering cease? What BIBLICAL warrant do you have for for judging God's elect by saying they are incorrect for defending the truths of Scripture as seen above? Please SHOW US the Scriptures!!! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/ponder.gif" alt="ponder" title="ponder[/img] Something someone wrote a long time ago may help:<br><br><blockquote>God hath appointed a day, wherein he will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ [1], to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father.[2] In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged.[3] but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.[4]<br><br><ul>1. Acts 17:31<br>2. John 5:22, 27<br>3. Jude 1:6; II Peter 2:4<br>4. II Cor. 5:10; Eccl. 12:14; Rom. 2:16; 14:10, 12; Matt. 12:36-37[/LIST]II. The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of his mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of his justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fullness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.[5]<br><br><ul>5. Matt. 25:21, 31-46; Rom. 2:5-6; 9:22-23; Acts 3:19; II Thess. 1:7-10; Mark 9:48[/LIST] III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity:[6] so will he have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.[7]<br><br><ul>6. II Peter 3:11, 14; II Cor. 5:10-11; II Thess. 1:5-7; Luke 21:27-28; Rom. 8:22-25<br>7. Matt. 24:36, 42-44; Mark 13:35-37; Luke 12:35-36; Rev. 22:20[/LIST] WCF CHAPTER XXXIII. Of the Last Judgment</blockquote>As Pusey said: "Right exposition is at variance with all heresy: and a fuller and more literal apprehension of Scripture is, at the same time, a shield against doctrinal error."
It is interesting you never offered any responses to the texts I listed, instead just wrote your own imaginings and complaints. <br>Joe has already provided a thorough response to your denials. Although, I would like to know what is your understanding of Christ's death on the Cross.<br> <br>It would be good to take heed so such words concerning God's punishment:<br><blockquote><br>Heb 10:26<br>"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and <span style="background-color:yellow;">[b]fiery indignation</span>, which shall devour the adversaries[/b], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the spirit of grace...<br><br>It would also be wise to heed A.W. Pink's words written while back:<br>"It is sad to find so many professing Christians who appear to regard the wrath of God as something for which they need to make an apology, or at least they wish there were no such thing. While some would not go so far as to openly admit that they consider it a blemish on the Divine character, yet they are far from regarding it with delight, they like not to think about it, and they rarely hear it mentioned without a secret resentment rising up in their hearts against it. Even with those who are more sober in their judgment, not a few seem to imagine that there is a severity about the Divine wrath which is too terrifying to form a theme for profitable contemplation. Others harbor the <span style="background-color:yellow;">delusion that God’s wrath is not consistent with His goodness, and so seek to banish it from their thoughts.</span><br><br>Yes, many there are who turn away from a vision of God’s wrath as though they were called to look upon some blotch in the Divine character, or some blot upon the Divine government. But what saith the Scriptures? As we turn to them we find that God has made no attempt to conceal the fact of His wrath. He is not ashamed to make it known that vengeance and fury belong unto Him. His own challenge is, "See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with Me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand. For I lift up My hand to heaven, and say, I live forever, If I whet My glittering sword, and Mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to Mine enemies, and will reward them that hate Me" (Deut. 32:39-41). A study of the concordance will show that there are more references in Scripture to the anger, fury, and wrath of God, than there are to His love and tenderness. Because God is holy, He hates all sin; And because He hates all sin, His anger burns against the sinner: Psalm 7:11.<br>...It is the deepening conviction of the writer that what is most needed today is a wide proclamation of those truths which are the least acceptable to the flesh. What is needed today is a scriptural setting forth of the character of God—His absolute sovereignty, His ineffable holiness, His inflexible justice, His unchanging veracity. What is needed today is a scriptural setting forth of the condition of the natural man—his total depravity, his spiritual insensibility, his inveterate hostility to God, the fact that he is "condemned already" and that the wrath of a sin-hating God is even now abiding upon him. [color:red]What is needed today is a scriptural setting forth of the alarming danger in which sinners are—the indescribably awful doom which awaits them, the fact that if they follow only a little further their present course they shall most certainly suffer the due reward of their iniquities. What is needed today is a scriptural setting forth of the nature of that punishment which awaits the lost—the awfulness of it, the hopelessness of it, the unendurableness of it, the endlessness of it. It is because of these convictions that by pen as well as by voice we are seeking to raise the alarm</font color=red>."<br></blockquote><br><br>God has clearly revealed the punishment that the wicked will endure in hell through his written word. <br><br>in Christ,<br>Carlos
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
jl: Question 1.) Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ is both the Son of God and the Son of Man, but I don’t understand what you are trying to say in the rest of your question, you have given me a contradiction, impossible to answer.<br><br>seya: even without the obvious error in the response, you would not be swayed. You're not 'just looking', you're looking for the unwary to bolster your views of universalism. An evil worker, deceitfully handling the word of God.
Pilgrim<br><br>I believe you have hit the nail on the head here.<br>JL's problem is that he has a human subjective standard, instead of an infallible Word of God standard.<br>Until he sees this, he will continue in his ignorance.<br><br>Tom<br>
What wouldn't I give to find a church that would preach a sermon like this. Most churches I've attended lately speak precious little about Hell, and those that do have air conditioned it!<br><br>There is no place where God isn't, and Hell is no exception. While I believe that it is a place of separation, it isn't from God, but from His grace and mercy. His justice and wrath will be very much with those who are destined for it.<br><br>Struggling but blessed,<br><br>Hannahsmom<br><br>
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