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#42045 Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:50 PM
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Peter Offline OP
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I was reading over at Triablogue a place that makes my head hurt and like the bear that lives in Mr. Sander's house I often find that I have very little brains. So when they said Meredith Kline suggested that perhaps angels were created just before the fall of man something just didn't click.

So I ask when were the angels created and the fall of Lucifer occur?


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Peter #42046 Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:34 PM
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Going off of Job 38:4-7,

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Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Here the "sons of God" refer to the angels, which is clear from the prologue to Job in 1:6: "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them." It would seem the angels were created no later than the first day of creation. The exact timing is not revealed in Scripture, but my inclination is that they were created when God created heaven (since that is the dwelling-place of angels). Scripture doesn't say when Satan fell, but evidently it wasn't long after his creation if indeed the angels were created on the first day.


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I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Peter #42049 Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:54 PM
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I am inclined to say that the angels were created along with everything else. grin (cf. Gen 1:1; 2:4) But I do believe the angels were created before Adam, which was the pinnacle of God's creation. Another deep insight in regard to the time of the falling and casting out of the rebellious angels would be it happened before man fell. [Linked Image]

This of course, leaves a very small interval of time between the angels creation and the great angelic rebellion. But I also believe this is true with regard to the fall of Adam and Eve; i.e., they fell very soon after they were created. shrug

In His grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Pilgrim #42057 Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:21 PM
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Peter Offline OP
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Now in the article I was reading in Triablogue they mentioned that since Kline didn't hold to a literal 24 hour day creation that the time period between the creation of the angels (and I am with Pilgrim on this that it was when God created Heaven) and men could have been a great time span. So that the rebellion could have been after much time had passed. Which doesn't make sense to me, but then again I hold to 24 hour literal creation days.

Now I've been taught that the fall of man happened on the seventh day, so it follows that the fall of the Satan had to happen between day one and six. Sound about right.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Peter #52383 Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:14 PM
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Sorry to dredge up such an old thread. I was going to post a question about the timing of the creation of the angels, and before doing so, I did a search on the forum. This was the only relevant thread in the substantial results list, but it asked the same question. Please let me know, for future reference, whether the members of this board would prefer starting a new thread, as opposed to bumping such an old one.

Okay, so the question of when the angels were created, has been answered here. And, my long-held beliefs coincide. A couple of references (NKJ):

Quote
Ex.20 11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them."
Quote
Neh.9 6 "You alone are the Lord;
You have made heaven,
The heaven of heavens, with all their host,
The earth and everything on it,
The seas and all that is in them,
And You preserve them all.
The host of heaven worships You."
Quote
Job38 4-7 "“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?”"
If the "sons of God" in Job are taken to be angels (some believe otherwise), then the angels were already in existence when the earth was created. But according to Ex.20, they were created during the six-day creation. Therefore, on Day One.

Some may object that this doesn't leave very much time for Lucifer's fall, coming, as it must, before Adam's fall. But as Pilgrim said, it also did not take Adam long to fall!

[As an interesting aside, I read a comment about why Lucifer fell, to the effect that the covering cherub was the head angel, above all the other angels. But when man was created, he (the man) had direct fellowship with God, without Lucifer being involved, and this may have led to Lucifer's jealousy.]

Now a question: does anyone know of any reason why the idea of angels being created during the six-day creation (rather than a long time before that) would present any difficulty for dispensationalists?


Meta4

There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. - C.H. Spurgeon
Meta4 #52384 Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Meta4
Please let me know, for future reference, whether the members of this board would prefer starting a new thread, as opposed to bumping such an old one.
There is no problem reviving an old thread in regard to the topic being discussed. But there could be a problem if someone responds to a post and expects a response from the OP if that person isn't a member any longer..... aka: a VERY loooooong wait; eternity? [Linked Image]


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simul iustus et peccator

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