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#43381
Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:32 PM
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He [an elder] must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. (Titus 1:9-11)
First, I agree with Dr. Masters’ observations and stand with him in my distaste for “worldly, sensation-stirring, high-decibel, rhythmic music.”
His criticism is threefold: music, lifestyle and historical accuracy of Hansen’s analysis of American Calvinism. All three are deficient, with this I agree.
But notice the words of Apostle Paul above to Titus. He was to refute the “circumcision group” on the basis of their teaching, not their music, dress or historical accuracy. And the “young, restless, and reformed” folks are getting the teaching right! I rejoice that 21,000 young people at a Passion conference are hearing the doctrines of grace. Do I enjoy their music? Emphatically no! Will I adopt their lifestyle and dress? Absolutely not. But it almost sounds like Dr. Masters would prefer that these young people were hearing the heresies of the Mormons, or listening to Joel Osteen’s platitudes rather than Reformed teaching.
Later he lists four positions of the neo-Reformed (as they are called elsewhere) and refers to a “poor stand of these preachers on these crucial issues”:
1. They have no problem with contemporary charismatic-ethos worship, including extreme, heavy-metal forms. 2. They are soft on separation from worldliness [see endnote 2]. 3. They reject the concern for the personal guidance of God in the major decisions of Christians (true sovereignty), thereby striking a death-blow to wholehearted consecration. 4. They hold anti-fourth-commandment views, taking a low view of the Lord’s Day, and so inflicting another blow at a consecrated lifestyle.
Can he say with certainty that a contemporary worship style—which appears to be his main criticism of the young, restless and reformed—leads inevitably to worldliness? Can he be sure that they “reject the concern for the personal guidance of God…”?
I don't dispute the fact that the young, restless and reformed need to be instructed in godly living and follow the example of more mature men and women in the faith. And so do I at age 55!
Now, before your keyboards start smoking I want to assure you that I agree with Dr. Master’s observations--although not his conclusions--and admire his acumen, maturity in the faith, and zeal for soundness of doctrine. The church desperately needs more men like him. And the church desperately needs men with the gift of discernment like Dr. Masters whom God uses to challenge error in doctrine and conduct. But to sound the alarm that “…the ministry of warning is killed off, so that every error of the new scene may race ahead unchecked” on the basis of a conference where C.J. Mahaney spoke is taking his concern a bit too far. Every error? I can think of a lot of errors that the new Calvinists have not embraced.
The Apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians that, “The former [those who preach with impure motives] preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. (Phil. 1:17-18) Similarly, I can rejoice that Calvinism is being preached albeit with impure motives, loud music blaring between messages, and the preacher wearing a Jesus T-shirt.
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Now, before your keyboards start smoking I want to assure you that I agree with Dr. Master’s observations--although not his conclusions--and admire his acumen, maturity in the faith, and zeal for soundness of doctrine. The church desperately needs more men like him. And the church desperately needs men with the gift of discernment like Dr. Masters whom God uses to challenge error in doctrine and conduct.... Similarly, I can rejoice that Calvinism is being preached albeit with impure motives, loud music blaring between messages, and the preacher wearing a Jesus T-shirt. Dear brother, It would appear that you have not understood Dr. Master's "maturity in the faith", nor his "gift of discernment". Why? Because he is CONSISTENT in his conclusion(s) with that which Scripture teaches. Okay, what am I referring to? Scripture in myriad places teaches that right doctrine MUST lead and exhibit itself in a transformed life; a life that is evidenced in good works. Good works are synonymous with godliness and holiness, forsaking sin and a conformity to the law of God. Notice this correlation in Paul's statements found in Eph 4:20-24 and Col 3:8-10: Ephesians 4:20-24 (KJV) "But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." and...
Colossians 3:8-10 (KJV) "But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:" There is a clear pattern to be seen in Paul's pastoral letters, e.g., Galatians and Ephesians, as well as elsewhere in his letters and in those of the other apostles: Doctrine > Application (transformation of life). In other words, right doctrine MUST lead to a change in behavior. For example, if you believe xxxx then you will live like xxxx. The entire chapter of Romans 6 is a perfect example. After expounding at length on the doctrine of justification by faith alone, Paul applies that doctrinal truth by saying that there will follow a life of holiness. James also says the same thing succinctly in his epistle 2:19 and 26: James 2:19 (KJV) "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." The Reformers were sorely criticized for their tenacious holding to the doctrine of Sola Fide; a man is justified by faith alone. But the criticism was in error because they did not mean that this faith stood alone apart from works. Thus it was further clarified as, "Man is justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone!" So, Dr. Masters is simply being biblical correct in seeing a bifurcation, an inconsistency with what is being taught (doctrine) and the manner, method and expression in that teaching. It's a half-truth that is being promoted. Calvinism is far more than the "Five Points". It is a full-orbed cosmology; world and life view. Calvinism transforms a persons life when embraced with BOTH the head and the heart. ALL things are transformed by biblical doctrine. Did not Paul counsel Timothy, his young protégé: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV) "All scripture (doctrinal truth) [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." Thus such things as worship are regulated by Scripture. One's view of God will evidence itself in how one approaches God, how one worships God, how one speaks of God, etc. Let's take one specific example to show how this "neo-Calvinism" violates the very essence of true doctrine. Wearing a "Jesus t-shirt" is in direct violation of both the Second Commandment and the Third Commandment. Contemporary worship/music is in direct violation to the command to flee worldliness and its appeal to the base senses of fallen man. Finally, I'll let Jesus have the last word, Matthew 7:21-24 (ASV) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:"
Luke 6:44-47 (ASV) "For each tree is known by its own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and the evil [man] out of the evil [treasure] bringeth forth that which is evil: for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Every one that cometh unto me, and heareth my words, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like:" In His grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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Near the end of his article Dr. Masters asks a resounding question,"Why have the leading preachers serving this movement compromised so readily?" Why indeed, it is shameful. Someone of weight must step forward and call out these "leaders".Not only are they sliding down a slippery slope because of their flawed doctrine but they are dragging young people off with them. History bears out the failure of compromising music and worship in order to gain attendance.The charismatic movement is a prime example.Having little spiritual depth they are in constant motion seeking for experience in place of sanctification. True enough, we shouldn't paint all of these leaders with the same brush but if people like Piper and MacArthur don't want to be painted they should shy away from the others. R.C. Sproul in writing the introduction for the republishing of Jonathan Edwards'"The Distinguishing Marks of a Work of The Spirit of God" says that Edwards always used 1John 4:1 as a benchmark to determine if a work was of the Holy Spirit or of another spirit.This verse can be a red alert against the force of credulity,a readiness to believe on a basis of insufficient evidence.Credulity is faith without substance, an easy believeism that lacks discernment. He further states that in Old Testament times that Israel's greatest threat was from within rather than from other nations.An example being Exodus 32:As Joshua and Moses returned to camp they heard a noise that at first sounded like war.After drawing closer Joshua noted that the noise was not war but singing.So it was ,as he came near the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing.
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I visited the 268Generation website to see what the Passion Movement is about. Their purpose is Passion exists to glorify God - uniting students in worship and prayer for spiritual awakening in this generation. Their Vision and Core is From the beginning Passion has been rooted in the confession of Isaiah 26:8: “Yes Lord, walking in the way of Your truth we wait eagerly for You, for Your name and renown are the desire of our souls.”*
As a result, Passion seeks to gather college and university students across the nation and around the world to seek the face of God, asking Him to ignite in our souls a passionate pursuit of Jesus Christ and a desire to spread His fame to everyone on earth.
We believe God is calling out a generation of college students committed to the glory of His name in all things. God longs to bring awakening to every campus, mobilizing the students of today to finish the task of global evangelization in this generation. God is calling us out for this purpose, in this moment, for His renown.
*This version of Isaiah 26:8 is a combination of the NIV and NASB translations. Their Shaping Values is as follows: Foundational Beliefs ........................................................ Passion Conferences is guided by certain foundational beliefs and shaping values. Conservative and evangelical, our statement of theological foundations includes, but is not limited to, the following: Knowable Truth We believe in the accuracy, truth, authority and power of the Holy Scriptures as the Word of God.
One God ........................................................ We believe in a personal God who has revealed Himself as One. God exists in three persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - each distinct, yet all of One essence. Uniqueness of Christ ........................................................ We believe Jesus Christ to be the virgin born Son of God who lived in flesh, died for the sins of the world, was buried, rose again and ascended to the Father according to the Scriptures. Grace Life ........................................................ We believe that the death of Jesus Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Salvation is obtained by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. All who repent of their sins and receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord are born again to eternal life as children of God.
Indwelling Power ........................................................ We believe that life on earth is to be lived in the power of the Holy Spirit, who indwells believers, enabling them to live distinctive lives in the life and power of Christ, glorifying the Father in heaven.
God's People ........................................................ We believe that those who have placed their faith in Christ are knit together in one Body, the Church, a distinctive community of faith expressed in local clusters, engaging culture on every front with God's hope and love... a Church for which Christ will personally return.
The Knowledge of the Holy ........................................................ Created by and for God, we seek to passionately pursue an intimate relationship with God in response to His great love for us. To know God is the ultimate treasure of the soul.
Whole-Life Worship ........................................................ More than outward forms, theologically informed worship must encompass our entire existence, whereby in all circumstances our words and actions bring glory to God.
His Renown ........................................................ We echo and affirm the Westminster Confession: "the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever." All things exist for the glory of God.
Community of Faith ........................................................ The worldwide Body of Christ functions best in localized communities of believers. Seeking to serve the local church, not replace it, is a value that is affirmed by our staff and leadership as they worship and serve within the context of their local fellowships.
His Renown ........................................................ We echo and affirm the Westminster Confession: "the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever." All things exist for the glory of God.
Mobilization ........................................................ Believing that God seeks worshippers from all peoples, we desire to inform, challenge, equip and mobilize believers for participation in God's global purposes among the nations.
Cultural Impact ........................................................ Desiring to see all people worship God in Spirit and truth, we endeavor to engage the culture through creative Biblical communication, one to one sharing of the message of Christ and acts of compassion toward those in need.
Spiritual Awakening ........................................................ We long to be a catalyst for awakening among God's people around the world, renewing them to their full potential as His people in this present age. You can also listen to some music on the Passion2010 website. Compare that eg. with Psalm 102 and Psalm 130. In this regard, I have asked myself, if an unbeliever hears the two types of music, which will he associate with church and which not? If our music style is no different from popular secular music, then what, in terms of music, makes us different from the world? Just asking.  As an after thought: Psalm 130 refered to above comes from the 1650 Scottish Psalter. It survived more than 350 years. Does that not mean something? Will the Passion2010 songs survive that long?  (Have no more hair left from all the scratching!) Apart from our confessions from the time of the Reformation, is it not our music that also links us, or rather binds us, with our brothers and sister in Christ of 350 years ago? (Scratching again) Johan
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Johan, Did you happen to catch the doctrinal contradiction in their "Shaping Values"?  In this section they affirm semi-Pelagianism/Armininism in denying total depravity by stating that regeneration follows faith and there is an openness to their statement concerning the scope of the atonement: Grace Life ........................................................ We believe that the death of Jesus Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Salvation is obtained by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. All who repent of their sins and receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord are born again to eternal life as children of God. But they claim to embrace the Westminster Confession of Faith: His Renown ........................................................ We echo and affirm the Westminster Confession: "the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever." All things exist for the glory of God.
simul iustus et peccator
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In this section they affirm semi-Pelagianism/Armininism in denying total depravity by stating that regeneration follows faith and there is an openness to their statement concerning the scope of the atonement: Grace Life ........................................................ We believe that the death of Jesus Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Salvation is obtained by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. All who repent of their sins and receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord are born again to eternal life as children of God. Jeff, Although it could have been stated more precisely, I don't see that quote as denying total depravity by asserting that regeneration follows faith. You may be reading too much into the word 'obtained'. They did use the word, 'receive' in the next sentence. 'born again' does not have to imply that faith precedes regeneration in the sentence. Maybe it does, but it doesn't have to be interpreted that way. Wouldn't we have to marry the two paragraphs along with some others to get a complete picture of their core beliefs.
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
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John,
I have perhaps more questions than answers about movements like these. What I simply find strange or does not understand of such movements and organizations outside formal church structures, is why can't they simply and explicitly quote the necessary statements from a formal confession of faith like the WCF or the Belgic Confession. These have been well formulated specifically to avoid any ambiguity. The mere fact that what they say is open to interpretation (you and Pilgrim read it differently) calls for a better formulation. And we have these in the confessions of faith.
They quote what they support from the WCF but do they support everything?
Just a thought.
Johan
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Grace Life ........................................................ We believe that the death of Jesus Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Salvation is obtained by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. All who repent of their sins and receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord are born again to eternal life as children of God. Jeff, Although it could have been stated more precisely, I don't see that quote as denying total depravity by asserting that regeneration follows faith. You may be reading too much into the word 'obtained'. They did use the word, 'receive' in the next sentence. 'born again' does not have to imply that faith precedes regeneration in the sentence. Maybe it does, but it doesn't have to be interpreted that way. Wouldn't we have to marry the two paragraphs along with some others to get a complete picture of their core beliefs. John, 1. The statement that "Jesus Christ was the final and complete sacrifice for the sins of humanity." is also spurious, as I stated originally. At best it is worded in nebulous terms, e.g., "humanity". Do they mean humanity to mean "generally", as the Bible speaks, i.e., sinners from every tribe, nation and tongue? Or, do they mean for every man, woman and child indiscriminately and without exception? The way it is currently worded can easily imply the latter which is a universal atonement and thus antithetical to what Reformed theology teaches. 2. Now, as to the specific matter of their statement denying "Total Depravity", I maintain that it clearly does as stated. Why? a. The order which it appears is "All who repent of their sins and receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord" are (results in) being "born again". b. Terminology: "born again" as used by Jesus Christ in John 1:12,13 and 3:3,5 is synonymous with regeneration, which our Lord says is of necessity. The English phrase "ye must be born again" in the original Greek is in the "passive mood". So, the literal translation would be, "it is necessary that you be birthed from above", i.e., your "new birth" is the result of someone else's act upon you. The whole passage in which the Lord Christ is explaining to Nicodemus the necessity of being "born anew" clearly teaches that man has no part. Even Nicodemus understood this truth when he says, "how can a man be born when he is old?" Secondly, the Lord Christ explains that one cannot even "see" (comprehend, apprehend) nor "enter" (via repentance and faith) the kingdom of God unless this new birth comes first. Thirdly, the new birth is the work of the Spirit totally apart from any involvement of man. It is a secret and sovereign act of God. Paul also makes this clear in Eph 2:1-5 and then says that faith is the result of being "made alive"; another synonym for "born again, born anew, born from above and regeneration." c. The order and phraseology of their statement is identical to the semi-Pelagian/Arminian system and contrary to that stated in the Reformed Confessions. The Canons of Dort, Third and Fourth Heads of Doctrine The Corruption of Man, His Conversion to God, & the Manner Thereof - Articles of Faith
Article 10 But that others who are called by the gospel obey the call and are converted is not to be ascribed to the proper exercise of free will, whereby one distinguishes himself above others equally furnished with grace sufficient for faith and conversion (as the proud heresy of Pelagius maintains); but it must be wholly ascribed to God, who, as He has chosen His own from eternity in Christ, so He calls them effectually in time, confers upon them faith and repentance, rescues them from the power of darkness, and translates them into the kingdom of His own Son; that they may show forth the praises of Him who has called them out of darkness into His marvelous light, and may glory not in themselves but in the Lord, according to the testimony of the apostles in various places.
Article 11 But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions.
Article 12 And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture, that renewal, new creation, resurrection from the dead, making alive, which God works in us without our aid. But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation that, after God has performed His part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted or to continue unconverted; but it is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable; not inferior in efficacy to creation or the resurrection from the dead, as the Scripture inspired by the Author of this work declares; so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe. Whereupon the will thus renewed is not only actuated and influenced by God, but in consequence of this influence becomes itself active. Wherefore also man himself is rightly said to believe and repent by virtue of that grace received.
The Canons of Dort, Third and Fourth Heads of Doctrine The Corruption of Man, His Conversion to God, & the Manner Thereof - Rejection of Errors
Paragraph 8 Who teach: That God in the regeneration of man does not use such powers of His omnipotence as potently and infallibly bend man's will to faith and conversion; but that all the works of grace having been accomplished, which God employs to convert man, man may yet so resist God and the Holy Spirit, when God intends man's regeneration and wills to regenerate him, and indeed that man often does so resist that he prevents entirely his regeneration, and that it therefore remains in man's power to be regenerated or not.
For this is nothing less than the denial of all the efficiency of God's grace in our conversion, and the subjecting of the working of Almighty God to the will of man, which is contrary to the apostles, who teach that we believe according to the working of the strength of his might (Eph. 1:19); and that God fulfills every desire of goodness and every work of faith with power (II Thess. 1:11); and that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness (II Peter 1:3).
Paragraph 9 Who teach: That grace and free will are partial causes which together work the beginning of conversion, and that grace, in order of working, does not precede the working of the will; that is, that God does not efficiently help the will of man unto conversion until the will of man moves and determines to do this.
For the ancient Church has long ago condemned this doctrine of the Pelagians according to the words of the apostle: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy (Rom. 9:16). Likewise: For who maketh thee to differ? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? (I Cor. 4:7). And: For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter X Of Effectual Calling
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,[1] by his Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.[8]
II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.[11] In His grace,
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Johan, Funny that I replied to John_C without seeing that you had already responded in which you brought up the matter of the confessions which are succinct vs. modern statements of faith which are ambiguous or many times contrary to them.  There is another matter to consider also which is often overlooked. There are those who do quote directly from the confessions but who deny what the confessions teach in practice. A good example which is all too common today is where a group claims to adhere to the Westminster Confession but in their evangelism uses the "Four Spiritual Laws".  Or, just as common are those who again claim to embrace one of the major confessions of the Reformation but in their evangelism refuse to speak of original sin, man's total depravity/inability, God's wrath and judgment, and/or the necessity of repentance of sin. They use dumb-downed language so as to not offend anyone and which is more in-line with their worldly methodologies. In His grace,
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I am submitting the following information about Dr. Master's article, not necessarily because I disagree with him (still undecided), but because I have yet to see anyone else challenge what Masters is saying. I found this on another Reformed site. Here is an article about being "worldly" from the dean of Reformed Baptist Seminary mentioning Brother Peter Masters article: Quote: The problem of labeling “worldly” what the Bible itself doesn’t identify as worldly is not limited to some branches of fundamentalism. It can also be found among Reformed believers. For example, Peter Masters, pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, has recently censured a number of well-known Calvinists for promoting “worldliness” largely because they don’t share his narrow perspective on what kind of music is and is not appropriate for Christian lyrics.11 I could not get the url link to work so here is in full: http://blog.rbseminary.org/2009/10/...some-biblical-clarity-on-a-misused-term/Tom
Last edited by CovenantInBlood; Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:02 AM. Reason: Fixed quote & link
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Tom, You should know by now that the subject of "music", particularly when it is discussed in relation to corporate worship has been at the forefront of controversy for some time. It all boils down to whether or not one wants to consider all things as "neutral" and thus it is a matter of "taste" or if one considers all things as either "good" or "evil" and thus there is a biblical (objective) standard by which all things can be judged. Within that which is judged to be "good", i.e., approved of God, there is the Adiaphora; things indifferent, which true believers may have scruples about, e.g., alcohol consumption, tobacco use, certain foods, etc. This doesn't change the fact that these things are not sinful but that their use may be regulated due to the scruples of weaker brethren. The Church, however, should not formulate polity based upon the scruples of the weaker brother but rather what Scripture teaches concerning such matters. Now, in very plain terms, Dr. Masters has taken the position that all forms of modern rock music, country, etc., which all have basically the same form, are worldly, i.e., they do not glorify God and thus are unacceptable, both for private and corporate use... particularly corporate worship. Those which disagree have the onus upon them to show that such music is godly and thus acceptable. You know where I stand on this issue as I have stated my position and defended it here many times and in other places on the Internet. I believe Dr. Masters is 100% correct in his understanding of what Scripture teaches on this subject. His book Worship in the Melting Pot is excellent and I would highly recommend you read it.  And, are you saying that you are also ambivalent to the use of coarse language and the other blasphemous displays made by some of these men, e.g., wearing a "Jesus t-shirt", etc.? Have you not thought of these things over the past 10 years of so and been able to come to a decision based upon YOUR study of God's infallible Word? Or, do you consider everything "neutral" and a matter of "personal taste"? 
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040 |
Instead of dismissing Dr. Masters' use of "worldly" with respect to certain forms of music as "narrow" and rooted in personal distaste, Dr. Gonzales could have addressed why Dr. Masters called such music "worldly." Instead, he simply assumes that musical genre is a matter of taste, i.e., it is adiaphora. Of course worldliness is fundamentally a heart-matter - who disputes this? But it leads to outward conformity with the ways of this world, including, for example, immodest attire or immoral music.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893 Likes: 49
Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893 Likes: 49 |
Pilgrim Although I now believe that the Regulative Principle of Worship is biblical, I can tell you that it took me years to come to that conclusion. During those years, I have come to believe that it is not a black and white issue. Meaning that I can understand how someone might not agree with me about the issue. What is important to me is not whether someone holds the proper biblical understanding of this issue. It is whether or not they are Reforming to what Scripture says based on the light that God shows them in the Word of God. I have been a believer now for about 30 years and out of those 30 years, only about 10-12 years of that in the Reformed faith. In those 10-12 years many doctrines such as the Regulative Principle were introduced to me through sites such as 'The Highway'. Many of these doctrines, despite my wanting to understand them so I could decide whether they are biblical or not, actually took a lot longer that I would have liked to embrace. I still have many issues I am working through. And, are you saying that you are also ambivalent to the use of coarse language and the other blasphemous displays made by some of these men, e.g., wearing a "Jesus t-shirt", etc.? Have you not thought of these things over the past 10 years of so and been able to come to a decision based upon YOUR study of God's infallible Word? Or, do you consider everything "neutral" and a matter of "personal taste"? About the use of course language, I think it speaks for itself. Even when I wasn't a Christian I knew it was wrong and when a supposed Christian does it, it certainly doesn't help matters, especially when non-Christians see the way they act. The Jesus t-shirt thing, at one time I would have looked at this issue a lot different than I do now. Before, I looked at it as someone who wants to share their faith with others. I didn't even know that it was a controversial matter in Christian circles. Now, I can honestly say that although I believe it breaks a commandment (sorry I can't remember which one at the moment). But I know some very knowledgeable Reformed Christians that do not see this issue the same way. It is not that they don't want to submit to what Scripture says on the issue; it is that they actually don't believe it is breaking the commandment. So are they sinning? Maybe, but if that is the case then anyone who believes and acts on misinformed beliefs, based on their understanding of Scripture will inevitably sin. Which I am afraid everyone of is guilty of. This is not to say that I believe things are "neutral" and a matter of "personal taste". It is that some things are not as black and white as others things. Kind of like the Paedo vs. Credo issue. You may feel that the Paedo vs. Credo issue isn't a very good example for me to use. But, I know from seeing debates on this issue that many Reformed Christians on both sides of the issue, are very passionate about this matter. I am sure many of them would put the issue as more important than whether or it is ok to wear a Jesus t-shirt. Something I have been guilty of over the years since becoming convinced of the truth of Reformed theology; is being uncharitable. In my zeal for the truth and sharing that truth, I often forgot just how long it took me to understand these truths. I somehow unrealistically expected others to embrace these truths when I told them about it. Yes, it is true that many of these people probably will never embrace them for many reasons. But, some of them it isn’t because they are not open to the truth, it could be that they just might be where I was years ago. Pilgrim, I knew from experience that you would disagree with my post and to be quite frank I probably should not have posted it at all. Not necessarily because I am wrong, but because when it comes to knowledge of these matters I can’t hold a candle to you. So, my main reason for posting this is as I stated before in my initial post and to let you know where I stand at the moment. Tom
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,026 Likes: 274
Head Honcho
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Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,026 Likes: 274 |
Tom, I am quite sure that Dr. Masters' criticisms reach beyond the Regulative Principle which focuses mainly upon corporate (formal) worship. His concern extends to the very lives of those whom he names due to their open exhibition of worldliness and even more so that they are encouraging, either directly or by way of example, their hearers to follow likewise. Now, being "uncharitable" can mean many things including refraining from exposing sin in another brother's life.  Lastly, on this matter of the Jesus t-shirts... I have to be bluntly honest Tom. Even if there wasn't a Second Commandment or even a Third Commandment, which I strongly hold forbid such blasphemous things, I could not in good conscience allow them, never mind actually wear one in public nor in private. My respect and reverence for my Redeemer, my God, my Lord Jesus Christ rails against even the thought of putting a false image of His person on a casual article of clothing (anything). I firmly hold that those who do such things reveal their true doctrine of Christ despite what they profess to believe. The fact that there are those, perhaps the majority in our dark day, who would take issue with me, calling me narrow, uncharitable, old fashion, intolerant and a whole list of other pejoratives doesn't change the truth, nor does it mean that since the issue is disputed that it should be relegated to something "less important". If you only take but a few seconds to think about that you would realize that there isn't one single biblical doctrine or teaching of Scripture which someone hasn't objected to. So, are you going to propose that there is nothing important which a Christian should defend with all fervor?  Personally, I believe Dr. Masters' might be guilty of understating the case and the seriousness of it.
simul iustus et peccator
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 45
Newbie
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Newbie
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 45 |
Pilgrim, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I read the article to 2 of my friends. We are in the minority at our church about Worship that is glorifying to God. vs. music that could be a secular song if you didn't listen closely to the words. Jesus said, The road is narrow and few there are who find it, the road is broad that leads to destruction. It makes me so sad when I see these large displays that are called Worship conferences but sound like rock concerts. It is the gospel that melts men's hearts and changes them, not these displays of people that look and sound like the world.
I am sorry to be going on but I feel so strongly as Dr. Masters wrote that we are heading down the same slippery slope as the world with it's passions and pre-occupation with emotional experience without regard for that which is honoring and glorifying to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Be killing sin or it will be killing you. John Owen
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