The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum human inability

This has always been an area of confusion for me, how the spirit working repentance & faith simotaneosuly thru regenration - Spurgeon explains first that the Spirit show man his sin and inability THEN the Spirit shows the Cross of Christ.

DOesn't sound like it is happening simotaneously, almost sounds like 2 seperate events....

Any thoughts?

Regeneration is just what the word connotes; to reanimate, bring back to life. Thus when a sinner is regenerated the dead soul is made alive, i.e., spiritually alive where it was once dead. This new spiritually alive soul (nature) is able to discern spiritual things where before it could not. The apprehension of these spiritual things includes but is not limited to one's guiltiness before God, the odiousness of sin, a desire to repent of sin, the desire to be reconciled to God, the recognition that the Lord Christ is the only way to that reconciliation, and a desire to please God through obedience to His revealed will.

Now, all these things are part and parcel of a regenerated soul. There may be a time-sequence as to how they are expressed, but these elements are so closely related that one could say that they happen at nearly the same time. In other words, contrary to some who hold that one can be regenerated and not believe on Christ for months or years later. This is typically applied to infants or children. But I personally find no such teaching in Scripture. The purpose of regeneration is to bring a person to Christ unto salvation and to thereafter live a life of holiness before God and man. A spiritually alive soul will most naturally be convicted of sin and believe upon Christ nearly instantaneously.

There are several excellent articles on The Highway on this subject here: Soteriology - The Doctrine of Salvation.

Ok thanks Pilgrim, and I agree 100%

Again, I really like your answer - just one other point of clarification - like Spurgeon said the regenerated/convicted sinner becomes diligent in wanting to be obedient to God and recognizes Jesus as needful unto salvation. But often a natural result of the new life is a renewed sense of responsibility/accountability to a righteous God.

So often/always we actively reform - does the fact that we become active and diligent in the need for righteousness diminish the fact that we are also acknowledging our own righteousness is as filthy rags (and as a result are fleaing to Jesus?)

I often hear that we have to come to an end of ourselves before Jesus becomes fully needful, which would seem to indicate that there is a distance in time between conviction of sin and truly relying on Jesus for mediation (true faith)

or is this simply a matter of faith being in exercise or not?

1. Re: being active in seeking and practicing righteousness and acknowledging those good works are as 'filthy rags'. I believe they go hand in hand. Sanctification is 'synergistic' (cf. Phil 2:11,12; Rom 6,7). The recreated soul/nature of God's children seeks after God's righteousness both forensically (resting on Christ's active and passive obedience in their behalf) and practically (walking in holiness, Eph 1:4; 2:10; 4:1,17,24; 5:2,8,15; 2Cor 7:1; 1Thess 3:13; Heb 12:10; et al). One of the reasons why the regenerated sinner seeks after holiness and righteousness is that they are very aware that there is no good thing within him (Ps 119:5,32,40; Rom 7:18; 1Pet 4:2).

2. This phraseology, "we have to come to an end of ourselves before Jesus becomes fully needful, is very dangerous and is typical of many "Mystics" and/or "Pietists". What this often does is to thrust one into the endless and fruitless exercise of morbid introspection. The poor soul is directed to take his/her focus off of Christ and onto themselves, seeking for that 'necessary' emotional conviction and disparity of soul. The question needs to be asked, 'How much desperation is necessary before one can truly come to know they are trusting Christ for salvation?' My answer is, 'It isn't a matter of quantity but rather a matter of quality. Whatever the Holy Spirit deems necessary to bring a needy sinner to Christ is enough!!

3: Re: Time element between conviction and believing. As I indicated before, my view is that when true conviction comes there is an immediate reaching out in faith upon the Lord Christ. Whether the actual 'time' is 1 second, 30 seconds, 2 minutes or whatever doesn't matter. Conviction and believing are inseparable and occur together. They are two sides of the same coin.

On a related note - I have 2 questions about Misery-Deliverance-Gratitude.

1. I would deduce from your comments that you believe M-D-G is also a comprehensive part of the same experience, meaning each aspect of true conversion is basically interrelated & instantaneous.

2. I was told by a little less-conservative Christian-brother that M-D-G is less linear and more circular. Not that it is a viscious cycle, but rather as we undergo sanctification/growing in grace we will actively expereince the bitterness of sin and a renewal of repentance leading to continued gratitude. So the initial rebirth is not in question, but a renewal of the misery of sin/the deliverance from sin/and the gratitude toward the Savior continues/is continual....

thoughts?

Yes and No... The original subject was in regard to regeneration, which is monergistic. Now, it seems, you are switching gears, so to speak, and focusing upon sanctification, which is synergistic. Yes, MDG is a comprehensive part because sanctification naturally flows out of regeneration --> justification. But I do not believe it is of the same 'experience', since regeneration is not experiential, i.e., the recreating of the will (new nature). Conversion, the fruit if regeneration is experiential.

I'm not sure what this individual is wanting to distinguish between 'linear' vs. 'circular'. IF I had to stay with his terminology, I would have to say that MDG is linear, i.e., there is a progressive movement toward becoming more like Christ, i.e., perfectly holy. As sanctification progresses one is given more of a glimpse of one's own sinfulness and thus an increased need and love for Christ and all that is good. Of course, this progression is not a constant, unwavering increase in these things for there are surely times of digression, fallowness, etc. But overall, it is surely an upward progression. So, I don't see this as a "renewal of MDG" but a continuation and increase of it.

Does that address what you are asking?

but after we are regenerated we cannot experience misery & repentance over sin for an extended period of time without coming to Christ for Deliverance, correct? You would define that as morbid introspection, right?

AC,

Perhaps my problem is your "terminology"??? When you speak of "coming to Christ for deliverance", theologically, this most always refers to justification, wherein a sinner is delivered from sin by grace through faith in Christ. That being so, when a sinner is regenerated he/she will infallibly believe upon Christ nearly instantaneously... NOT after an extended period of time. I thought we had established and agreed upon that matter, correct? In sanctification there is an ongoing and increasing apprehension of one's sinfulness and the sin as its fruit BUT also an experience of joy, peace and assurance due to Christ's work which HAS BEEN ACCREDITED. If one only experiences conviction without also the experience of knowing God's love then there is at best a distortion, an imbalance for whatever reason.

Morbid Introspection, in the vernacular, is "navel gazing", i.e., an obsession of looking inward with the intent of finding something commendable before God. Yes, "commendable" which is what this type of error most always ends up being. The person hopes to find something in and/or about himself that unites him with Christ. Of course, most who have fallen into this morbid practice will deny any such thing. Rather, they will most always propose that they are looking for a work of God in them, which sounds very pious and even biblical. The bottom line is one doubts their salvation, the genuineness of faith, that Christ died for them and that God has pronounced them justified with a guarantee of eternal life. But how is it that an unregenerate man can have any such fretting? Such a person has no real interest in Christ. Yes, there are definite "marks" of regeneration which can be ascertained. In fact there are three:

1. A hatred of Sin, a love of Christ, and a desire to live a holy life before God.
2. The testimony of the saints who will recognize, as much as they are given to know, a changed and godly life.
3. The witness of the Holy Spirit Who testifies that we are indeed children of God.

And finally, to repeat what I've written before... The question should never be, "How much: hatred of sin do I have? Is my repentance enough? Is my faith genuine enough? Do I really love Christ enough? etc., etc., ad nauseam. THAT is "morbid introspection"! Since repentance and faith are gifts of God, does one think that if the answer to any of these questions is, "No!", do they somehow hope that they can somehow manifest these things of and within themselves? Or, there are some in my experience who will sit around and pray that God would grant them these things. And, until that should happen, they say they are destined to eternal damnation. What God requires, however, is if one is that concerned about salvation then the remedy is more than simple..... "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved!" When they shall stand before God what will they say in their defense; "Oh Lord I would have believed but you didn't grant me faith!!"? Is this not reminiscent of Adam's excuse after he ate of the fruit... "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen 3:12) Man's innate inability to repent and believe is no excuse for not doing so. That only those who are born again of the Spirit will repent and believe is surely true. But those who have a genuine interest in these things have to conclude that God is working in them and thus they are to repent and believe and rest assured that God's promises are true... "...him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (Jh 6:37) And, "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. (Matthew 11:28,29)

We cannot escape by pointing a finger at God and His sovereignty. We are held to account according to man's responsibility.

yes, I guess I was confusing terminology - thanks!

One more thing:

could you explain exactly what Misery-Deliverance-Gratitude is exactly. I know you explained it's part of sanctification but how does it fit with the other realities of being a Christian that you've already covered - thank you!

AC,

Actually the "Misery-Deliverance-Gratitude" is how the Heidelberg Catechism has been historically understood in its three divisions. It is actually a summary of the entire life of a Christian:

1. Misery: that first work of the Spirit bringing conviction of guilt and sin.
2. Deliverance: conversion whereby the sinner repents and believes upon Christ and is thus justified, being no longer under the power, presence nor penalty of the law.
3. Gratitude: mainly sanctification wherein a redeemed sinner lives to the glory of God out of a heart of thankfulness.

What I did try to communicate is that although these three things are part of the experience within sanctification, they are NOT synonymous with regeneration and conversion. Most of the Dutch Reformed churches have wrongly made the two nearly the same in many cases. This is one of the several reasons why assurance is lacking in so many of its members. They never get to the Deliverance - Gratitude part but are so often times stuck in the "Misery" part (aka: morbid introspection). Ironically, and with great contradiction, they teach covenant children the Heidelberg Catechism which is meant to be the confession and experience of a believer and which tragically fosters false assurance in those youths.

thanks, you left me with much to reconsider.