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#46733 Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:17 PM
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"It was a long, slow, painful death. In the end, the patient pulled strongly on the plug and what little life was left exited the body with a tragic gasp. May the Presbyterian Church, USA rest in peace. But there will be very little peace in this pathetic death. Ratified by a majority of presbyteries one month ago and effective one month from today (July 10), the church has abandoned its denominational commitment to traditional marriage. Gone is the standard for ordination that requires pastors, “to live either in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman …, or chastity in singleness.”

Conservatives within the denomination had narrowly, but successfully resisted similar efforts over the past 15 years, but the diminished and beleaguered traditionalists lost the 87th and 88th presbyteries in last month’s effort to change the constitution. “Progressives” had reached the needed majority and the constitution has been amended to allow for ordination of non-celibate gays and lesbians.

For centuries, the Presbyterian Church stood on the proud heritage and legacy of men like John Knox who fearlessly and valiantly stood for the truth of scripture. Today, the modern Presbyterian Church (USA) (also “PCUSA”) bears little resemblance to its noble ancestry. While some in the movement had worked hard for and held out hope for some kind of spiritual awakening, a renewed commitment to orthodoxy, it seems that hope is now gone. Let this be clear: The issue here is not homosexuality. The core of the matter is the authority of scripture."

Read the entire article HERE


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Pilgrim,

Do you know of other links to this decision by the PCUSA as well?

Johan

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nope I'm sure there are others, but to be honest, I haven't taken the time to use our friend [Linked Image].


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The Church of Scotland faces a similar demise. Read here:
The Church of Scotland Votes to Lift Ban on Gay Clergy


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You can now see the change in wording on the PCUSA main page. As with everything else about the PCUSA the "new" wording is much like our modern "legal document's." Many words placed in a very convoluted way that at the end of the day, don't make much sense so as to confuse the common reader.

Basically, it's people trying to legally lie to other people. That's the PCUSA in a nutshell. It's a denomination that lie's and hides the truth.

Anyway, there really isn't that much on the internet about it. But there are a few good sources if you google it.

As being a current member of a mainline PCUSA Church, because my wife refuses to leave; right now most congregations are in the "Well, we don't really support the decision, let's just see if we can repeal it." stage.

Meaning; let's just drop the subject and wait long enough so that most people will forget about it. Again suppressing the truth. Just like they suppress the Gospel, the Atoning work of Christ, justification, sanctification; etc... etc...

Unfortunately the Bible for the PCUSA is no longer any different then any other book. It's just a moral guide book along with many others that supports Humanistic Religion. That is what the PCUSA is now, it is no longer and hasn't been for a very long time the Church of Christ but rather the Church of Humanism.


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
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Originally Posted by Reformation Monk
As being a current member of a mainline PCUSA Church, because my wife refuses to leave; right now most congregations are in the "Well, we don't really support the decision, let's just see if we can repeal it." stage.


Please extend my enthusiastic applause to your wife for sticking to it. The truth is that the demonic left is gaining ground because too many good people are abandoning ship. Those who are staying in the fight aren't ready to throw in the towel and so I wouldn't characterize this as the death of a denomination but rather a sign of the times we are in. I would agree with the OP that as a mainline protestant denomination, there is a departure from the authority of scripture as plainly written, particularly the condemnation of homosexuality in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Romans. I don't think the Bible could be more clear, but I also don't think it matters how clear the Bible is to these people.

"Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do." Jn 8:43,44.

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who perish (1Cor 1:18) which is why it's important to underscore that the Bible is not enough unless a person has a relationship with the Author. And so I think the deeper issue is unconverted hearts reading the Bible with foolishly darkened minds.


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Originally Posted by chestnutmare
The Church of Scotland faces a similar demise. Read here:
The Church of Scotland Votes to Lift Ban on Gay Clergy

I would like to draw attention to the "comments" section of this article. The pro-supporters have genuine hatred toward anyone with an "anti-gay" stance.

This is no longer about Truth. Or in other words, for these people, "who vehemently identify themselves as Christians," there is no more Bible. They no longer identify the Bible as being inspired by God. But rather, just a collection of historic writings that fallibly point to God. Or in other words; certain Israelite men, trying to know and understand God as best as they could.

Just like Buddhists having a channel, or Hindu's having another channel and so on and so forth..... so in other words, all religions lead to God in their own limited way, and that so; they are all subject to correction based on subjective feelings, because the most subjectively clear absolute is that the only thing that matters is love.

God is clearly, in all religious expressions, LOVE. Therefore, it is very clear that this is one Objective and Absolute Truth that Christian Universalists/Humanists stand on.

So, in so saying; because the most important thing is love, then it is clearly "unloving" to be prejudice against people who are openly gay.

I say all this to say that this is serious. Very serious.

I am confronted with this hatred in the PCUSA. Not an open antagonistic hatred, but a very clear ostracizing hatred. In other words; if you seem to be in anyway a "Fundamentalist" Christian, then you are no longer welcome in many circles. Not in a blunt "get out of here" way, but in that, people will no longer welcome your presence, they will no longer want you around, they won't agree with you and will often times, argue and resist you in a "politically correct" way.

But this is seriously all about to change drastically. These latest changes are now really completely tearing down almost all reservations the Liberal Christian had.

In other words, there is now going to be serious warfare. Liberal Christian Universalists/Humanists are now more and more becoming much more vocal and militant.

Our Secular Culture combined with the now almost completely victorious Liberal Christian Universalists/Humanists are now making plain and serious efforts to "STAMP OUT TRUE CHRISTIANITY" completely!

It is all very clear to me now, being someone who has seen this rather quick development in the last 15 years and been apart of it.

The most deceiving thing about it is that, Liberals are always lying. They are always trying to hide their true agenda, always trying to cover up their true objectives, their true belief's. So it's a slow deceptive process.

I can't count how many times I've been lied too by many leaders in the PCUSA, when ever I raised any objections and or concerns. Lie's with the full intent to try to smooth things over, keep me quiet and push me back into a corner where I'll just keep silent and to myself.

Anyway, I say all this to say that this is serious, because this is just the beginning.

I'm beginning to figure out why I've been attracted to Monasticism for so long. Why I've adopted the name "Reformation Monk." It's not because I have any desire to be a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Monk. But it's because, I totally see widespread Christian persecution in the future.

I see where this is all going and it's not going to be good. I can see laws passed that are going to take away personal and religious freedom rights and that anyone who openly preaches and or advocates God's Truth will be identified as a "Fundamentalist" and subjected to Legal Prosecution.

I don't claim to have any prophetic gifting, this is all just my opinion, but in my personal experience, it's becoming more and more obvious with each passing year that True Christianity is not being tolerated at all.

So I can see a time coming in the future where True Christianity will be forced to into privacy. Like China and other countries, True Christians will have to gather privately in their homes or privately owned buildings in fear of imprisonment and or physical persecution.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I might be totally off, but I'm afraid that I'm not. I've battled many Liberal Professors and Deans and they mean business. They do not accept Classic Orthodox Christianity and are openly attacking it.


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
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Originally Posted by via_dolorosa
Originally Posted by Reformation Monk
As being a current member of a mainline PCUSA Church, because my wife refuses to leave; right now most congregations are in the "Well, we don't really support the decision, let's just see if we can repeal it." stage.


Please extend my enthusiastic applause to your wife for sticking to it. The truth is that the demonic left is gaining ground because too many good people are abandoning ship. Those who are staying in the fight aren't ready to throw in the towel and so I wouldn't characterize this as the death of a denomination but rather a sign of the times we are in. I would agree with the OP that as a mainline protestant denomination, there is a departure from the authority of scripture as plainly written, particularly the condemnation of homosexuality in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Romans. I don't think the Bible could be more clear, but I also don't think it matters how clear the Bible is to these people.

"Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do." Jn 8:43,44.

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who perish (1Cor 1:18) which is why it's important to underscore that the Bible is not enough unless a person has a relationship with the Author. And so I think the deeper issue is unconverted hearts reading the Bible with foolishly darkened minds.

Via_dolorosa,

Unfortunately this has been the main sentiment expressed about the PCUSA for many years.

This has been the "catch phrase" for anyone speaking out against the clear Apostasy. As if to say, " YOU QUITER! IT'S YOUR FAULT"

Sorry but that doesn't fly anymore. I've been fighting for Biblical Truth within the PCUSA for many years now and it's no longer a battle at all. The PCUSA is completely Apostate all across the board. This isn't about the new ruling or Homosexuality at all. It's about True Christianity and False Christianity. It's been about that for many years.

You can commend my wife all you want, but at the end of the day, she is submitting herself to the authority of false prophets preaching a false gospel.



Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
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Reformation Monk,

The Scripture is also very clear on what one should resolve to do when surrounded by such damnable heresy and abominable immorality. There are many such passages with instructions to believers. But the one that stands out in my mind is found in Paul's second letter to the Corinthian churches where gross immorality was openly displayed and even encouraged. This is what Paul wrote to them:

2 Corinthians 6:13-18 (ASV) "Now for a recompense in like kind (I speak as unto [my] children), be ye also enlarged. Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what portion hath a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you, And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."


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Your right Pilgrim and I think that I'm going to have to start going to another Church. Hopefully my wife will follow eventually.

P.S. just wondering about your thoughts on Sovereign Grace? Do you know much about them?

I'm not really wanting to join a Reformed Baptist Church, but they're a lot closer to me then the nearest "acceptable" PCA Church.

Last edited by Reformation Monk; Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:47 PM.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
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I am somewhat familiar with the Sovereign Grace Baptist Association. However, there are several groups that refer to themselves as such. Consequently, it is difficult to know what the local church close to you is about. Some embrace NCT (New Covenant Theology), which I deem to be a heretical teaching concerning the law of God. Others are quite 'ingrown' and have little to do with non-Baptists. And yet others are quite amiable and solidly Calvinistic in at least their views on soteriology. As it is with any church in our present time, it must be scrutinized and stand or fall on its own merits or demerits. Bottom line: you are going to have to visit the church and ask specific questions which you think are most important.

Again, if you would provide your present location in the Church Locator Forum it may be possible that one or more possible churches could be suggested for consideration. Granted, some appear to be worthy of consideration from their online information, but when you physically visit them, it becomes sadly obvious that they are not worth considering. I remember speaking with the 'pastor' of an alleged Reformed church and he said all the right things. So, I visited the church and after perusing their books, pamphlets being offered, and then watching the people file into the auditorium in bathing suits, little league baseball uniforms, and other casual attire, which all produced a negative reaction within me the deafening beating of the drums and drone of the electric guitars was the final note that had me running for the door before this 'pastor' even took to the stage. Moral to the story is... physically visit any church under consideration and take your time with your assessment. Sometimes it is painfully obvious within minutes. But for others, it can take a much longer time to decide. wink


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You might want to check out their web site if they have one.
Also something I have found to be helpful is to meet with the pastor, armed with specific questions.
Or perhaps if you prefer you can do this via e-mail.

Seeing you are just looking for a biblical Church, you can word your questions in a manner that doesn't necessarily show what you believe on the topic. I have used this method with some success, mainly because the pastor doesn't give the answer he believes you want to hear.

Tom

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Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake

I believe this Church was established by C.J. Mahaney

Anyway, it's a lot closer to where I live. Again, I've been a life long Presbyterian and I am more partial to Reformed Presbyterian Theology and Faith and Practice.

But I've worked with many Baptists and at the end of the day, this still looks like a solid Church. I've listened to many Sovereign Grace online Sermons and they are all pretty darn good.

Or.... I can travel a little farther and go to this Church.

Calvary PCA

This seems to be a more conservative PCA Church, preferring a more traditional worship style, which I prefer as well. The sermons seem to be pretty good. I'm just not really fond of the PCA in my area.

What do you all think?

P.S. after much prayer, I had a long talk to my oldest daughter ( 13 ) yesterday and my wife today and they now know and understand why I have chosen to attend another Church. My was understanding, so it seems that maybe she will follow. Keep us in your prayers please, I've been having a lot of people pray about this and so hopefully God is working in her.

Dave


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
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Dave,

In Peter Master's excellent article The Merger of Calvinism with Worldliness, he mentions both C.J. Mahaney and his replacement Joshua Harris. I thought you should be aware of some of their particular views which you may want to pursue further or perhaps reconsider the sovereign grace church. scratchchin

Quote
In times of disobedience the Jews of old syncretised by going to the Temple or the synagogue on the sabbath, and to idol temples on weekdays, but the new Calvinism has found a way of uniting spiritually incompatible things at the same time, in the same meeting.

C J Mahaney is a preacher highly applauded in this book. Charismatic in belief and practice, he appears to be wholly accepted by the other big names who feature at the ‘new Calvinist’ conferences, such as John Piper, John MacArthur, Mark Dever, and Al Mohler. Evidently an extremely personable, friendly man, C J Mahaney is the founder of a group of churches blending Calvinism with charismatic ideas, and is reputed to have influenced many Calvinists to throw aside cessationist views.

It was a protégé of this preacher named Joshua Harris who started the New Attitude conference for young people. We learn that when a secular rapper named Curtis Allen was converted, his new-born Christian instinct led him to give up his past life and his singing style. But Pastor Joshua Harris evidently persuaded him not to, so that he could sing for the Lord. New Calvinists do not hesitate to override the instinctual Christian conscience, counselling people to become friends of the world.
Re: Calvary Presbyterian Church, their view of worship is "mixed". They state:

Quote
We desire to express ourselves to God in reverence, joy, authenticity, truthfulness, devotion, passion, love and thankfulness. While there is liberty in the specific styles or forms of worship, Calvary has adopted a more traditional style of worship that has incorporated some songs of worship that have a Gospel-centered, contemporary flavor to them.
My overall estimation of the PCA is similar to yours, i.e., the majority have left their traditional Presbyterian roots and adopted various and myriad doctrines and practices which are inconsistent with the Westminster Standards and their historic interpretation and application.

Are you close to Charlottesville, VA? Have you searched for an OPC congregation or a Heritage Reformed congregation near you? The OPC isn't exempt from problems either, but I think there are a few more reasonably good congregations in that denomination vs. the PCA. The Heritage Reformed denomination at this point is quite good.


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Originally Posted by Reformation Monk
Via_dolorosa,

Unfortunately this has been the main sentiment expressed about the PCUSA for many years.

This has been the "catch phrase" for anyone speaking out against the clear Apostasy. As if to say, " YOU QUITER! IT'S YOUR FAULT"

Sorry but that doesn't fly anymore. I've been fighting for Biblical Truth within the PCUSA for many years now and it's no longer a battle at all. The PCUSA is completely Apostate all across the board. This isn't about the new ruling or Homosexuality at all. It's about True Christianity and False Christianity. It's been about that for many years.

You can commend my wife all you want, but at the end of the day, she is submitting herself to the authority of false prophets preaching a false gospel.

Ref Monk,

I'm sorry for coming across the wrong way in giving the impression that anyone who leaves your church is a quitter. In fact, I believe that there is no wrong answer in this decision. There is certainly merit in staying in the fight and battling for the truth, but who can blame anyone for wanting to pull out of stormy waters and seeking a church body where everyone is in agreement. The place where we worship should not be a battle zone. What's most important is that you and your wife are on the same page and I pray that will happen.

My larger point was about how unconverted hearts are utterly estranged from the Bible. They don't see themselves as in conflict with the Bible, but rather the dominant interpretation of it. I find they are not dissimilar to the liberal left in America and their treatment of the Constitution. Because they hate liberty and seek the implimentation of tyranny, they read the Constitution very differently from how it was written. They see "rights" that don't exist, or they dismiss the document altogether as descended into antiquity (sound familiar?)

The parallel is important because forces at work in your church also, not by coincidence, vote Democrat and support a very leftist agenda. After they've achieved their goal of corrupting a denomination, they will then go after other denominations like the Sodomites who oppressed the outlying villages after gaining dominion over Sodom and Gomorrah. I bring this up because I disagree that this is about true Christianity vs false Christianity. These people are not Christian in any sense of the word and will drop the charade as soon as they've achieved their mission.


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