The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Reformed Mysticism/Pietism vs True Experientialism

Hi Pilgrim and every/any body else,

I know you and I have spoke about this in detail.

But I do notice there are many Christian teachers and preachers who blur the lines in regards to the subject line.

I was wondering if you can provide a list of past theologians/preachers who you believe significantly entered the realm of Mystecism/Pietism to the detrement of themselves and their fellow believers.

I believe you would name Pink, Murray, Philpot, Gill on the list....anybody else singificant? What about Edwards? Darby? I know there are no perfect preachers but I'd like your input on those you feel have crossed the line....

Plus, could you be as specific as possible on how you would draw the line between true experiential faith/preaching & Reformed mysticism/pietism

I understand it's probably not as clear-cut as I would like it to be.....but I am asking out of true sincerity...not to give you a hard time or debate the matter...I do think this topic could make for an interesting discussion.....

also, who would you recommend as having a balanced view on these matters? Spurgeon, Owen, Bunyan...Beeke?

thanks!

AC

I really don't think it would be beneficial to provide a list of Mystics.

From the few you listed, only Andrew Murray and J.C. Philpot would make my own personal list. I'm not well enough acquainted with Darby to say he would fall into the "Mystic" category. However, he was certainly guilty of serious heresy with his Dispensationalism. And I will also say that Jonathan Edwards was no Mystic.

Again, I do not think it would be profitable to provide a definitive line between true experimental preaching and mysticism/Pietism. Generally speaking, my personal observation has been that those who setup some emotional/experiential standard that all should strive for or even worse, a standard by which one is to be judged as being saved or not are to be avoided. What I believe Scripture demands is faith, repentance and a striving after holiness. We all fall woefully short in all three of these, but the Spirit within motivates us to do so for all our earthly days. Our eyes should always be upon Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith and not some arbitrary experience determined by some man. Most of the Puritans had the proper focus. But there have always been a few who have been enamored with Medieval Mysticism, a "deeper life", a distorted and unbiblical standard by which one is to conform. If Paul judged himself to be the "chief of sinners", how much more am I to judge myself before God? Salvation is by GRACE alone, through FAITH alone, in CHRIST alone.

Yes to all of the above. And, as I mentioned already, most of the Puritans had that balance for the most part.

Can you recommend some good books/articles on the topic of sound experimentalism (i.e. what it is, how it should be preached, how it manifests in our daily lives)...

I would start HERE!

Addendum: I really should have added this before, but I didn't and so I'm doing it now!

Experimental preaching is a good thing IF done in moderation and judiciously as circumstances demand. Even a good thing can be abused and misused. The primary calling of a minister of the Gospel is to feed the sheep. Doubtless, among those professing to be followers of Christ there will be those who are self-deceived or even deliberately deceitful and thus the great value to experimental preaching. This applies to every truth of God. For example, if all a man preached on was total depravity or unconditional election, the congregation would starve to death... if you know what I mean, Vern? Men must preach THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD so that the man of God can progress in sanctification unto maturity (perfection). Isn't this one of the concerns of the writer of Hebrews, cf. Heb 6:1,2? The vast majority of the NT in the Epistles consist of the matter of doctrine and its application to all of life, aka: sanctification in the truth.

Thanks, that Beeke article was very good....and I agree that too much experiential preaching & moreso too much depravity preaching will probably do more harm than good

I've often heard in Christian circles (usually not Reformed) the necessity of having a 'personal relationship' with Christ....what do you think they mean by this.....it sounds experiential but if it stems from a Free-Will perspective the foundation is probably faulty........what says you?

I find such statements as "having a personal relationship with God/Christ" obnoxious, arrogant and ignorant.

In nearly every single instance where I have heard someone speak in those terms, what they meant was having an emotional experience based upon an all-too-familiarity with God, i.e., a god of their own devices. It's not simply a matter of it being a product of "free-willism", but of the entire modern version of semi-Pelagianism. The irony, at least in my mind, of this type of thinking is that it is meant to develop some deep personal 'bond' with God but in fact it is seriously superficial. How so? Because it brings God down, as if that were even possible, to the level of man where God becomes one's "buddy-buddy" or "daddy", resulting in God being nothing more than a celestial friend who will tend to one's every beck and call; the proverbial celestial bellhop. Theologically, this self-imagined relationship effectively removes God's transcendence and ignores His ineffable holiness. Of course, the opposite error is also prevalent among the Mystics who so far remove God that it is virtually impossible to know Him... except, of course, for those select few who have transcended their earthliness through some ethereal spiritual experience.

I think you held back your true feelings on the matter with your reponse..... Just kidding!

Thanks for the insights....I believe Pilgrims Progress really captures (in an allegorical manner) the varied profiles of the nominal christian back in his day and it is surely applicable today (probably much more so).

It also seems to me the Second Reformation was a bit of an overeaction to head-only/works-based christianity that placed the outward expression of faith under the microscope to detect marks of inward spirit-based heart knowledge.....that easily can turn into a type of over-scrutinizing/over-analysis of Christian sincerity.