The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Regeneration, body & soul

I'm relating this question to purgatory.

When we are regenerated, is our soul/spirit totally pure while we are still sinful in body/flesh? This is how I view the reality of regeneration......

RCC usually notes that no unclean thing will enter heaven, hence their understanding of the need for purgatory.

Of course Jesus has paid the price for our sins....but is the reality of the situation that our soul/spirit is made pure and enters heaven upon natural death while the flesh goes to the grave until the day of glorification????

There is some difference of opinion among Reformed believers on this subject. Here is my understanding:

At regeneration, there is a radical change of the soul/nature; a new predisposition which takes precedence over the old nature. There is a remnant of sin that still exists, cf. Rom 7. The "body" (Gr. sarx) does not have any ability to sin but this tendency to continue to sin, which Scripture is indisputable clear, originates from our soul/nature. Upon physical death, the soul is purified yet is incomplete without the body. And finally, at the last Judgment the elect souls are rejoined with their new incorruptible body, aka: glorification.

May I highly recommend perhaps the most thorough treatise ever written on this subject, Human Nature in its Four-Fold State, by Thomas Boston. He writes that there are four "states" of human beings:

1. The State of Innocence (pre-Fall)
2. The State of Nature (post-Fall)
3. The State of Grace (regeneration)
4. The Eternal State

yes, I'm familiar with Boston's writing on the subject, I'll have to check it out....

Somebody who is RCC would argue that nothing unclean can enter heaven.....what would you say to one who would challange that if the old nature still exists there would have to be some purging (purgatory) that occurs before the spirit can enter heaven.....

I know this is the least of the problems with RRC doctrine since they don't believe Jesus' blood applied to the sinner is effectual by itself to save the sinner (or maybe they would argue it's only effectual to some specially chosen but others still have a chance with assisting grace)

and I know there are other verses that explain only a good tree can bare good fruit, so there are many verses that are black and white, but are still somewhat metophirical becasue even a saved sinner can also bare evil fruit for a brief time (i.e. David's sin with Bathsheba)....

I hope my question makes sense, thanks!

AC

1. Joshua the high priest appeared before God as a filthy sinner. He was then clothed in Christ's righteousness (clean robes), after having been stripped of his filthy garments (Zech 3:1-7). This event was symbolic and prophetic pointing to the coming of Jesus Christ Who would live a perfectly righteous and holy life in behalf of His people. Thus, all those in Christ are judicially clean and acceptable before God.

2. Paul writes "to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord" (2Cor 5:8; cf. Ps 73:23-26). We also read of the souls of martyrs being in heaven with God (cf. Rev 6:9-11) and they like Joshua the high priest were clothed with a 'white robe'.

In all these instances we find sinners in heaven, who at death immediately went to be with Christ, Who sits at the right-hand of God. What we believe is that Christ's substitutionary atonement is all sufficient to meet ALL the demands of the law and to cleanse us from ALL sin. The result of one being in Christ by a true living faith and that alone, is the saved sinner is reconciled to God and adopted into His family as righteous children who are guaranteed their full inheritance at the Last Day. There is no need of any purgatory. For how would a sinful individual make right even for just one sin? It is Christ and His righteousness which is required, for all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

In glorification we are immediately cleaned.

I don't know much about purgatory. Who is doing the work to make a person clean. If the person, how can he/she do it being dead? If God, why does it take Him longer with some than others?

John,

I think you might find a good explanation of this in the Heidelberg Catechism, "Lord's Day 22 which is in the Devotions Forum. In particular, there is this section that might be most helpful.

II. Where and in what state does the soul remain when separated from the body?


"The Papists imagine that the souls of men, at the time they are separated from their bodies, pass into the fire of purgatory, that they may there be purified from sin, some sooner, and others later, according as they, during the period of life, loved to a greater or less extent, the perishing things of this world as Lombard says. The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that no fire after death, but that the blood of Christ, purifies our souls in this life from all sin. They also teach that the souls of the faithful when they die, are not cast into the place of torments, there to be purified by fire but, that they are gathered to Christ in Abraham’s bosom, whilst the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, from which there is no way of escape, and where they are now tormented with hellish agonies, being at the same time reserved for the more intolerable torments of that eternal fire which the wrath of God will kindle in the judgment, which Christ will execute at the end of the world.

The Scriptures in many places speak of the state and condition of the souls of the faithful after death in the following manner: “Father into thy hands I commend my spirit.” “Lord Jesus receive my spirit.” And it came to pass that the beggar died, and was carried by the angel into Abraham’s bosom.” (Luke 23:46. Acts 7:59. Luke 16:22.) From what is here said, it is plain that the souls of the pious dead are not in purgatory. Paul says, (Phil. 1:23) “I have a desire to depart, and be with Christ.” He did not therefore, have any fears of purgatory.  The godly are “willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” (2 Cor. 5:8.) They do not therefore, pass through purgatory before they come into the presence of the Lord.

The following passages of the word of God speak of the condition of the wicked after death. “The wages of sin is death.” “Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Rom. 6:23. Matt. 10:28.) The rich man, immediately after his burial, was in hell in torments, and exclaimed: “I am tormented in this flame.” (Luke 16:23.) A deliverance thence will for ever be denied him. He also feared, lest his five brethren would soon come to the same place of torment. The souls of the wicked therefore, when leaving their bodies, are not carried into purgatory, where a way of escape may open itself to them, but they are cast into the unquenchable fire of hell."

Is there a Reformed position on whether the wicked dead receive a new body or is their state essentially unchanged by the events of the Last Day?

Hitch,

The Heidelberg Catechism answers it this way. The entire Catechism is found together with Ursinus' Commentary, in the Devotions section. The section dealing with this question is found here.

V. What kind of bodies shall rise in the resurrection?

The bodies with which we shall rise in the resurrection, will not only be human bodies, but also the very same which we now have, and not other and different bodies created by Christ, as the Anabaptists affirm. Job says, “In my flesh shall I see God.” (Job 19:26.) The apostle Paul says, “Everyone shall receive in his body according to that he hath done;” “and this mortal shall put on immortality.” (Eph. 6:8. 1 Cor. 15:53.) It was therefore, taught in the African churches: I believe in the resurrection of this flesh. The same thing may be argued from the import of the word resurrection: for nothing can rise again, except that which has fallen. “This is the resurrection” said Ambrose, “as may be inferred from the import of the word itself, that that which fell may rise, and that what was dead may revive” The justice of God also establishes the same thing.  “For this” said Ambrose, “is the order and course of justice, that since every action is common both to the body and the soul, the body executing that to which the soul prompts, it is proper that both should come into judgment, and that both should either be given over to punishment, or crowned with glory “The justice of God demands that the bodies of the saints which have fought, should also be crowned; and that the wicked be punished in the same bodies in which they have blasphemed and opposed God. Wherefore, there will be restored in the resurrection to every soul, not a strange and different body, but its own proper body that which it here had and shall thus be crowned with glory, or punished with shame.  Finally, as Christ rose with the same body which he had when he died, so shall we also rise with the very body which we now have.

Thats about what I've always expected but I couldnt have possibly stated it so well.

Thanx

H

On The Highway, there is a relevant article which discusses this subject quite nicely. The author is A.A. Hodge, son of Charles Hodge who was Professor of Theology at old Princeton Seminary. You can access the article here: The State of Man After Death and the Resurrection. Hodge deals with the matter of the body specifically in section IV near the end of his lecture.