The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Calvinism

Well PrestorJohn has done an excellent job of answering your post. I will add but a mere sprinkling to it:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Notice your link doesn't work but of course this falls in line with the usual tactic instead of dealing with the matter at hand, when in doubt, produce another article. </font><hr></blockquote><p> To get the link to work is allot like reading the Scripture, but if you are not use to that then this will be difficult indeed. (1) please click on it...as you would have to turn a page of Scripture, (2) next, pray (3) next, read the page as most would the Scriptures after turning to them (4) next, pray again and ask God to give you the understanding of HIS truth and not you own 'tremblings of unbelief'. P.S. the link works just fine, it must be that Arminian browser that has a will of its own [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]<br><br>Funny, in all this we have still seen no exegesis of Eph 2:1 [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/shrug.gif" alt="shrug" title="shrug[/img] Is all you can do is rant and rave when your theology comes to grips with the Truth of Scripture? Is there not room for repentance? One Greek word study and you flip out?<br><br>P.S. My query to your mis-spelling was something I can prove in your post(s). Your insinuation that only 5% of Calvinists (which you also mis-spelled) are saved is not a matter of fact, but of your unlearned presumption. The Bible instructs you to make righteous judgments which you have failed to do not backing your insinuations with Scripture, but acting like God yourself sending out thunderings and lightenings from your "heavenly" PC. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/compute.gif" alt="compute" title="compute[/img]

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I hand you back to God and let him deal with you when resurrected out of the [color:red]bad side of Hades</font color=red> to GWT to the lake of fire if you continue to refuse Jesus Christ who is not blank in mind nor passive in spirit, whom we can receive and God choses those whom receive Him.</font><hr></blockquote><p> Funny, I never knew we were in your hands to begin with. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/shrug.gif" alt="shrug" title="shrug[/img] You really think you are God don't you?<br><br>Also, please tell us where the good side vs. the bad side of Hades is? I was not aware there was a good side in Hades. That must be in the NWT of the scripture.<br><br>

waronthesaints ,<br><br>This a little long, but I felt the need to clarify you on some of the texts. In addition, I’m leaving in few to go to camp for the week, so it will give you time to ponder on what I’ve written. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The scripture that I use to substantiate our non-mythical free-will in God's image as preimenent, is Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. God affords us this choice to have a choice to choose..</font><hr></blockquote><p> <br>Of course the Bible assert that men must choose , but that is not the matter that is in dispute here. The issue is not whether man has a will, rather whether God affects the will and whether man can make an “uncaused” or “indifferent” choice. A passage such as Phil 2:13 clearly demonstrates that God does indeed influence the will.“13[color:blue]For it is God who works in you, both [/b]to will[/b] and to work for his good pleasure</font color=blue>.”The Gen 3:3 passage does not teach your mythical free-will. If you still think so, please demonstrate. Neither Gen 3:3, nor any other passage teach that we are free such that we are outside Gods’ control nor is the will self-determining. Rather scripture is abundantly clear that man’s will is enslaved by his sins, the devil, and the world( i.e. Eph 2:1-4; John 8:34,44; 2 pet. 2:19; 2 Tim 2:26; Rom 6:20.etc.). Neither can man change his corrupt nature [ Jer 13:23]. Not only that but scriptures are explicit that that God can turn/influence the hearts of people as he wills as indicated above. For example, Prov. 21:1 “[color:blue]The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he[God] turns it wherever he will</font color=blue>.” Ezra 1:1-3 “1[color:blue]In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing</font color=blue>”. Here are other passages such that clearly reinforce this: psalm 105:25; Ezra 6:22, 7:27-28; Deut 2:30; Exodus 4:21,7:3,12:36;isiah 10:5-12,etc. God’s absolute sovereignty is incompatible with this mythical free-will. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] I see man's sovereignty and this God-given free will in God's image in Gen 1:26 ... I for one cannot deny this. It would seer my conscience. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/flee.gif" alt="flee" title="flee[/img]. Do you really mean “man’s sovereignty? Please elaborate. I hope that is just a misunderstanding on my part for there is only one who is sovereign in the universe, and that is God himself:Rev 6:10:"They cried out with a loud voice, "O <span style="background-color:yellow;">Sovereign Lord</span>, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?". No one here denying the passage. Were’ not denying that God did indeed create man in his ‘image’. However, this does not equate to the mythical “Free-will. What it means to be created in God’s image is expressed well by the The Westminster Confession of Faith. It states “After God had made all other creatures, He created man, male and female,with reasonable and immortal souls,endued with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image; having the law of God written in their hearts,and power to fulfill it….”<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Under Romans 8.6 I see the flesh, that is the sin of the body and the self of the soul, having no means to come to Christ, so it is not the flesh that comes to Christ, but that God's likeness that does of Gen. 1.26 and Gen. 1.27 that when accepting God's life, receives eternal salvation. Similarly, John 6.44, without legalizing this verse, says ultimately still, before that salvation is received God ordains it, not man, therefore we must fulfill the absolute necessary condition that is well pleasing to the Lord before He ultimately gives us His life, and never before for that is His condition for the gracing us. Amen.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>I cringe how you have just tortured Romans 8:6,7 and John 6:44. John 6:44 means what it says. “NONE ONE CAN COME TO CHRIST, “UNLESS” the father draws. John 6:36,37 proves that "coming" is synonymous with "believing". Furthermore, only those that have been given by the father(i.e. the elect) will come to Christ. You say that “we must fulfill the absolute necessary condition that is well pleasing to the lord before he gives us life….”. Did you not read the Romans 8:6 passage I quoted to you? First, in the <span style="background-color:yellow;">context</span> of that passage, Paul is expounding upon 2 types of people: those that are unregenerate, who are described as being “in the flesh”, and those who are regenerate, who are described as being “in the spirit”(Rom. 8:9). They are mutually exclusive. Please read the whole of Romans 8:1-17 because your idea about “flesh as the sin of the body” is meaningless in here and does not fit the context nor the text in question. The point that “In the spirit” is the state of Christians is further proved by verses 9-10 in which Paul says, “<br><blockquote><br>You[Christians], however, are <span style="background-color:yellow;">not</span> in the flesh <span style="background-color:yellow;">but in the Spirit</span>, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.<br></blockquote><br>And Romans 8:6-7 contradicts the statement you just made. “7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who [color:red]are in the flesh cannot please God</font color=red>.” The unbeliever can do Absolutely nothing can to please god Until He/she has been “drawn”, “quickened”, “Regenerated, “made alive”, etc. etc. Regeneration is God’s work alone, as demonstrated by such passages: James 1:18; 1 pet 1:23; John 3:5-6, 1:12-13; Titus 3:5; Psalm 100:3,etc). I have demonstrated this else where against someone of similar theology as yours. <br>Regeneration Precedes Faith<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>Same is true of 1 Cor. 2.14, that is not man's natural part that receives God, but that part which is like God that receives God, that is a free-will bestowed at creation, that can reject or accept the truth. Rejecting unto eternal damnation and accepting unto eternal life.<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>As you did with Romans 8, you missed the point of the text. The context clearly shows that Paul is making a contrast between two types of people: ‘natural man’ and ‘spiritual man’. This is not talking about different parts of man, rather the two types of people are set in opposition as in Romans 8. The natural man is the designation for the unregenerate, and the spiritual man is the regenerate. Paul uses the same Greek word translated “natural” in Jude 1:19 to the describe the false teachers, who Paul says that they are “devoid of the Spirit”; that is they are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The natural man, that is the unregenerate, thinks the things of God is “foolishness” to him. I'll finish this section with comments from Charles Hodge and hope that you'll understand the text better. He writes "Foolishness... is that which is to us absurd, insipid, powerless. When, therefore, it is said that the things of the Spirit are foolishness to the natural man, it means that they are to him absurd, insipid and distasteful...So the scriptures do not say of the natural man merely that he will not discern the things of the Spirit, because the difficulty in his case is not in the will alone, but in his whole inward state. He cannot know them. And the reason is, Because they are spiritually discerned. That is, because they are discerned through the Spirit. Therefore those who have not the Spirit cannot discern them. If the effect of sin on the human soul is to make it blind to the truth, excellence and beauty of divine things; if, as the apostle asserts, <span style="background-color:yellow;">the natural, or unrenewed, man is in such a state that the things of the Spirit are foolishness to him, absurd, insipid and distasteful, then it follows that he can discern them only through the Spirit. His inward state must be changed by the influence of the Spirit before he can apprehend the truth and excellence of the gospel</span>. There must be congeniality between the perceiver and the thing perceived. Only the pure in heart can see God. If our gospel be hid, says the apostle, it is hid to them that are lost. The only hope of the unrenewed, therefore, is in doing as the blind did in the days of Christ. They must go to him for spiritual discernment; and those who go to him he will in no wise cast out."<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Yes. It is harsh. This is not my God. Martin Luther understood it was grace that saves and a free-will that is graceable that is savable by saving grace.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Surely you can’t be serious about M. Luther [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile[/img]. Pilgrim has already noted to you that you must speaking of a different Martin Luther than we all know. <br>Here’s Link to the book that Pilgrim mentioned to show you the real M. Luther just in case Pilgirm’s quote was not enough for you. <br>Bondage of theWill<br>Will the real Martin Luther please stand up. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img]<br><br>You are quite right we serve different Gods. Yours is not of scripture.<br><blockquote><br>Dan 4:34-35: I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,<br>and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; 35all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,<br>and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth;<br>and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?"<br><br>Isiah 46:9- 11: Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,<br>10declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand,<br>and I will accomplish all my purpose, 11calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country.<br>I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.<br><br>Romans 9:15 “15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy…[19] 19You will say to me then, Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"<br></blockquote><br><br>Please consider the God of the bible, and not your imagination. <br><br>In Christ,<br>Carlos<br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]the link works just fine, it must be that Arminian browser that has a will of its own </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]<br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]<br><br>definitely time to go. Have a good week guys.<br><br>

Being made in the image of God, and then falling, does not now make one a zombie and needing a zombie leader without one's own cognizance. What it means is that the man is utterly corruptible and he has to accept that fact, the truth of the cross so does this.<br><br>There is a vital principle to all of this. We can't help people who don't want to be helped. So I have at least planted the seeds and those privately who are not willing to admit openly, can consider it further and allow God to work in them to cast out this demon of calvinism.

Being made in the image of God, and then falling, does not now make one a zombie and needing a zombie leader to pull them out, that does not select some selecting others prewillingly, without one's own cognizance. What it means is that the man is utterly corruptible and he has to accept that fact, the truth of the cross so does this in accepting his helplessness.<br><br>There is a vital principle to all of this. We can't help people who don't want to be helped. So I have at least planted the seeds and those privately who are not willing to admit openly, can consider it further and allow God to work in them to cast out this demon of calvinism.

I tell you what, I always miss out on the good discussions. Why do they happen on the weekends when I am away from my computer!? Usually, by the time I come into work on Monday I am so far behind that it is even worthless to participate. Either that, or the person gets so rude and off post guidelines that he is banned and I can't respond with my two nickels worth anyway. Oh well....<br>I will try to ask "war against the saints" the same question I asked another arminian proponent who use to frequent here but has since given up and gone some where else. <br><br>I asked him:<br><br>Follow my thinking here: I would believe that in order for the Arminian to maintain a consistent belief in free will as being an essential part of what makes a person, then a man must have this essential part of him in heaven as well, correct? That is the typical argument from those who adhere to "free will:" What makes a person a person is the ability to make contrary choices. Well, if that is the case, will Christians have the ability to reject heaven when they arrive? Put another way, will they have the ability to rebel, as it were, like Satan and the other fallen angels?<br>If not, then does God eliminate man's ability to "free will" when they obtain heaven? Would that not be the same as God "forcing" his will upon the will of man? Basically, making them all obedient robots?<br><br>Personally, I just can not see how the free-will humanist/Arminian can escape such a dilemma. If they insist that men must have free-will here on earth, in order to be human, then that same power of free will must remain intact when the Christian arrives in glory (assuming he doesn't loose his salvation along his earthly way). That would definitely imply that just as men had the ability of free-will to reject salvation on earth, even after they made a commitment to Christ (i.e., loose his salvation), they will have the ability to leave heaven when they get there, and rebel against God. If not, then I see an inconsistency with the Arminian's system of theology; for if God can not make a person choose salvation here on this earth, or even prevent him from leaving Christ after he has commited to him; then God surely can not make the believer stay in heaven if he so chooses to leave it. <br><br>I am curious for some thoughts from the Arminian "free-will" crowd. Particularly some Biblical proof text of such a possibility if they believe a Christian can leave heaven after he arrives by the act of his free will.<br><br>I would be curious to see what war against the saints says.<br><br>Fred<br>

Satan does not tempt you so that you lose your tempter, become proud or greedy or adulterous. He simply tempts you to bestir yourself. If only he succeeds in bestirring you to "do" something, he gains the victory. Oh that I had enough tears to cry out, "Don't be stirred!" Because once you have been stirred up to take action, you have failed. This is what calvinism does is it constantly tries to stir the mind to rationalize a concept called "total depravity" and it is because of this assumption, their god must unconditional elect them out of it through limited atonement by irresistable grace preserving these.<br><br>But once you realize the error, that is total depravity, you realize the whole thing is a farce. Men are not totally deprave because we are made in the image of God. However, we are utterly corrupt, but that is not the same thing of total depravity. Utterly corrupt means I can do nothing of myself because I am utterly corrupt. Total depravity says not only can I do nothing of myself, I can't even come to Christ so it turns the person into a zombie, while being utterly corrupt says man is not a zombie.<br><br>It is best reflected in Galatians 5.7. The flesh lustest against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh; for they are contrary to one another; that ye may not do the things ye would.<br><br>No place is given for us to participate. This is God's deliverance. We sit on the sidelines to watch the striving of the Holy Spirit against the flesh and vice versa. Such is the way of deliverance. Not zombiism that focuses on something else - on not the aspect of deliverance, but on the aspect of "I am a zombie, I was preselected unto zombiism irresistably, limitedlly, unconditionally, and perseveringly, but you are not". This is not proper Biblical psychology. It just does not work.<br><br>Proper Biblical Psychology says, In order for you to be delivered, you need to accept Christ to receive Christ, and in order for you to overcome in Christ you will need to say "I cannot", "I will not", "I believe", "I have received", this is yielding = letting go.<br><br>

No offense, but hopefully you and I can talk, for these others here, are killing my brain cells dumbing me down, so I decided not to cater to their flesh anymore, for they have nothing more to offer. You may want to convince a reformed calvin person with many verses but if a person doesn’t want to listen after reading only a few verses then why waste your time? Did the Messiah waste his time in such a way? I’ve said it many times before and I’ll say it many more times, people believe what they want to believe. Only the few who love true honest reason will listen to Truth. People choose what they want and if you could force them to choose differently it would not be a true choice to begin with. You might like to “sharpen your sword” by debating other people, I don’t have the energy for such things, but try not to get upset when they don’t listen - these days are as the days of Noah’s time. Noah preached many years but people refused to ‘listen’. That is why the Messiah sometimes started by saying ‘whoever has ears to hear...’<br>http://members.ozemail.com.au/~cohnmat/bpsy.html<br><br>This is the correct line of thinking of man and accuracy in scripture.<br><br><br>It is not correct that a man must have this essential part of him in heaven as well, so you can not go down this line of reasoning. Because all God is asking you to do first and foremost is believe, not just with words, but with your heart to the effect "I have come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as my Savior". If you can affirmitively believe this, you are saved, and noone can ever take that away from you. This requires no special part in heaven, for you are on earth right now, and that is what matters, and it is from earth that God is asking for you to receive Him, not from heaven. God will take care of the latter after that.<br><br>The reason why Christians will not reject heavenlies is because they are saved. The choice was already made the day they were saved. Think of the movie, The Matrix. Neo asks the Oracle, why am I here? And the Oracle says, You are not here to make a choice, for you have already made the choice, but rather you are here to understand why you made that choice. They do not go back on what they have already decided. Angels, those fallen already made their choice and thus fell, but men of God have no ability to reject God once saved unto eternal life because once that decision is truly made it is so incredible it is not up for negotiation later on. This is what it means to be truly saved.<br><br>Men of God once saved, those that are truly saved, have the life of Christ in them, so to ask me would they then reject that life does not make any sense because it is like asking Christ Himself would He reject Himself? No. We who are saved, are of full cognizance, not robots, but under calvinism you see roboticism because what exists in their realm is men preselected to hell and men preselected to heaven. These men never had free choice to begin with. It was all a farce, a pointless endeavor. God wants to walk with freely choosing beings like Himself. Not to mention the fact that this calvinistic god is cold and mindless.<br><br>There therefore is no delimma, though you long for one in arminians. That free-will does remain in tact when in heaven but you must realize it is a free-will in alignment with God never upsetting God, that is what we are men of God, never to reverse. I know that is hard for you to accept us with free-will, but that is what a free-will that accepts the life of Christ has, is a free-will that is overcome that can as Revelation says for those of the 1st resurrection, we can no longer be "hurt by the second death". Amazing huh! Scripture said it, not me. Well, I said it too.<br><br>I think your problem is you legalize depravity just like you legalize free-will and in these legalizations this is how you create this unsettling belief structure that does not accurately represent mankind, nor does it accurate represent a loving God. My belief which I have received from the Holy Spirit is that you are possessed by the demon of Pentecostalism and are under his chains in this thinking. If you want to change and receive deliverance from this supernatural intrusion into your being read these books which will help open the scriptures up to you for now you are blocked. http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv1/1968cont.htm<br>http://www.acts1711.com/wots.html<br><br>Those with a life in Christ have no ability to reject God because we have already made our decision, and that decision is locked forever when we came to Christ. This is a very profound truth but if you want to know the true Christ you will have to accept this basic tenent as well. <br><br>I hope this clarifies what before you saw as inconsistencies were really not inconsistencies at all, and calvinisms attempt to deal with what it perceives as these inconsistencies need not go to the efforts to harden God predetermining folks to hell with no free choice and making man a zombie. These overcompensations result from misunderstanding, that is, forming false initial basic assumptions about the the true nature of God and mankind.<br><br>We Christians (non-calvins) are permanently in Christ because that is what it means to be saved, it is an eternal choice. It is not so readily apparent to yourself this is true because the tares are meshed in with the wheat but a true saved man knows this to be true, and now if you want the truth for your life you too must accept this basic tenant, that comes to us effortlessly not of our own accord, that is that in be saved, it is Once Saved Always Saved. This is arminianism.<br><br>Bottom line: reformed calvinism is a cult based on killing free-will and obsessed over it. This is a rationalization of a lie. It is not correct Biblical Psychology. Man is not totally deprave, though man is utterly corrupt. When you can see this difference you will be delivered from the cult of reformation. By the way The Sardis church which in history is the reformation and revival period of Martin Luther was a dead church, false revival after false revival. It was not until around 1828 we saw the working of th Philidelphia church truly preserving the Word of God. today we are in the church period of Laodecia which means "differing opinions". Obviously consider bizarre idealogies of pentecostalism and reformed calvinism.<br><br>This is the very narrow path and narrow gate<br><br><br><br><br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]It is not correct that a man must have this essential part of him in heaven as well, so you can not go down this line of reasoning. Because all God is asking you to do first and foremost is believe, not just with words, but with your heart to the effect "I have come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as my Savior". If you can affirmitively believe this, you are saved, and noone can ever take that away from you. This requires no special part in heaven, for you are on earth right now, and that is what matters, and it is from earth that God is asking for you to receive Him, not from heaven. God will take care of the latter after that.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>You state that the will is not an essential part of man in heaven, but how exactly do you justify that belief?<br>Dr. Robert Picirilli of the Free-will Baptist Bible college stated in his response to me concerning this very question, that freewill is an essentiall part of man's personality and to deprive him of this mars the image of God - what you are arguing calvinists do in their theology. <br>Picirilli at least admits that he is unsure of man's will in heaven, but as a consistent Reformed arminian, he maintains that he will have freewill.<br>Be that as it may, then what you are suggesting with your reply to my inquiry is that man's nature is changed in heaven, that his power of contrary choice is done away with. Can you not see the blatant inconsistency in your core presuppositions?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The reason why Christians will not reject heavenlies is because they are saved. The choice was already made the day they were saved. Think of the movie, The Matrix. Neo asks the Oracle, why am I here? And the Oracle says, You are not here to make a choice, for you have already made the choice, but rather you are here to understand why you made that choice. They do not go back on what they have already decided. Angels, those fallen already made their choice and thus fell, but men of God have no ability to reject God once saved unto eternal life because once that decision is truly made it is so incredible it is not up for negotiation later on. This is what it means to be truly saved.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>That is a rather lame illustration for your point, because if you remember that when Neo reaches the Archetic guy, that he reveals to Neo that he had essentially been lied to by the oracle (she only programmed the power of choice into the Matrix to make certain that humanity would not reject the core program and die, but remain docile and enslaved to the machines), and that his destiny had been pre-programmed to replay a series of programs that had been replayed six times previously. How this Sci-Fi take on atheistic philosophy is even relevant to Biblical truth is yet to be seen from your pen (keyboard). <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]That free-will does remain in tact when in heaven but you must realize it is a free-will in alignment with God never upsetting God, that is what we are men of God, never to reverse. I know that is hard for you to accept us with free-will, but that is what a free-will that accepts the life of Christ has, is a free-will that is overcome that can as Revelation says for those of the 1st resurrection, we can no longer be "hurt by the second death". Amazing huh! Scripture said it, not me. Well, I said it doo.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>In alignment with God? Are you saying that God "forces" himself upon those who choose? Sort of like, to borrow a phrase from Norm Geisler, commits cosmic rape upon the minds of men? You have yet to show us any scriptural support for a free, libertarian will. At least when I pointed out the philosophical, humanistic presuppositions of free-willism to Dr. Picirilli, he recognized that, yes, belief in freewill is presupposed and that the only "exegesis" a person needs to see the reality of freewill is to look at all the passages that say believe on Christ. Of course, like all freewillers, he sort of glosses over those passages that state man has no ability to believe in the first place unless God changes his heart.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Those with a life in Christ have no ability to reject God because we have already made our decision, and that decision is locked forever when we came to Christ. This is a very profound truth but if you want to know the true Christ you will have to accept this basic tenent as well.</font><hr></blockquote><p> <br><br>So, it is your position that man's personality is altered after he chooses? That he forfeits his "freewill" the moment he believes the gospel and is saved? Even the Neo-socianians recognize such lunacy.<br><br>I will leave the rest of your comments for others to address. All I see is an individual who has only demonstrated an unabashed ignorance of what Calvinism actually teaches, and an overall ineptitude of handling the text of scripture. <br><br>I still didn't catch where you stated you went to church? Are you affiliated with any particular denomination, or are you one of those "lone" ranger Christians?<br><br>Fred

All the same mantra and mentalizations but is without life. Let provide you the finding. What is discovered is you have a faith of the mind and not a faith of the spirit. Your spirit is not your guiding principle but your mind is preimiment and thereby its errors go unseen because of the spirit unquickening. This means, your thinking process, your reality, that your flesh has constructed, has not been from a quickening of spirit, may very well be without new life and without the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is why in your conscience you care not for these basic priniciples but love to rationalize, even though I have overturned and will always be able to overturn them, and you will always come back with your retort and I won't like as I will see the flaw in it as I have each time hundreds even thousands of times men before you. Nothing changes. We, the body of Christ, can not get throug to you because you are playing in a different ballpark. It really is, like comparing apples to oranges, or like trying to get a dog to procreate with a bird. It is impossible.<br><br>I thought to reply to all your misunderstandings and mistaken assumptions, but I realized that would just beget more mistaken assumptions and more misunderstandings of what I said. If you are unwilling to understand what I said, there is no point in explaining what I said because you take that explanation and turn it in yet to something else of additional misunderstanding and mistaken assumptions of the truth of God. Until you show a willingness to stop do this, engaging such banter is pointless. You have to start showing a heart for God and not for the obsessions of your mind's stirrings. Man's mind will always find away out of the point being made of God's Holy Spirit, eg. you used the architect to rationalize away the conversation between the oracle and Neo, so you used a false movie to deny the illustration, nevertheless, the illustration still stands on its own merit to prove the point that OSAS.<br><br>I characterize conversations I have with reformed calvinists as dumbing down. It is nice however to see such men slowly have a change of heart from their zombiism or to seek the spirit's concience activitated that maybe there is something wrong with this obsession with killing free-will and preselecting men for hell while others for heaven. Though unfortunately I have seen no hearts for God hear for this change of mind.<br><br>I will keep praying.<br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]This means, your thinking process, your reality, that your flesh has constructed, has not been from a quickening of spirit, may very well be without new life and without the indwelling Holy Spirit.</font><hr></blockquote><p>You surely are a perfect example of what you charge fredman with; i.e., your "spirit" (the spirit of this age) has clouded your mind and thus rules your spirit. However, the apostle Paul wholly disagrees with your incoherent babbling as he says:<blockquote>Romans 12:2 (KJV) "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."</blockquote>With man, salvation is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Thus we do hold out hope that you will come to the knowledge of the truth, albeit that hope is a dim one. <br><br>In His Grace,

HUH!? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/confused.gif" alt="confused" title="confused[/img]<br><br>I guess through all the ramblings of your post you are saying I ain't saved? Maybe just not spiritfilled?<br>Can you deal with anything I wrote with meaningful substance?<br><br>I still would like to know what church you attend, if any. I have found that those who avoid this simple question usually expose themselves as being a kook [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/flatcat.gif" alt="flatcat" title="flatcat[/img]<br><br>Fred

Fredman,<br><br>I think that is what I am saying, because you can not understand what I am saying. I will simply say that God wants you to think a certain way, and if you think another way it is likely a sign, if it is so diabolically separated from God's way of thinking that I have shown you, that in most cases one can surmise because you are going down such a different path of thought process and zombistic passivity that in all likelihood you are not saved and you may never be but that does not mean you can not come to the true Christ, that being the difference between your god and my God for mine is equal to all to entry, but yours preselects insanely. I have supplied you with everything you need, all the tools to bring you out of this state with those two books, it is now up to you by your own free-will to let go of this zombiism and receive the true Christ. That is the best the Holy Spirit has afforded me how to put it to you - basically, get a conscience!

Your soul and spirit need to be divided, and until that happen you will not be able to understand the errors in these assumptions you have made and then the truth of them.<br><br>http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv1/1968cont.htm<br><br>