The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Concerning the freedom of the will

How free is our will? I know that sounds like a really simple question, but it is something I find myself off and on thinking about. My opinion is that we are free to make choices, but we are only as free as God allows for us to be. <br><br>So I want some other opinions on this topic. How free is our will? <br><br>Are there Scriptures that say we have a free will in the sense that most people see a free will?<br><br>Is my opinion competely wrong and stupid?<br><br>Just thought I'd put this discussion out here. <blockquote>[color:blue]For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.</font color=blue> Galatians 5:1 (ESV)</blockquote>

My opinion:<br><br>We are free to do what we will to do. God does not use coercion. That does not mean that we may do other than what God has ordained for us to do. Nor does it mean that a person dead in sin can come to Christ. For nothing is more absurd than to say that one would will what is contrary to their nature. The same is true of believers; they will not reject Christ because it is not in their nature to do so. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Are there Scriptures that say we have a free will in the sense that most people see a free will?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Most people equate determination with coercion and so reject any system in which God's knowledge of the future determines actions. They view "free-will" as the to act indeterminately. I cannot think of any texts which even address the issue of "free-will" to act indeterminately.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]How free is our will?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>As free as it could be with a timeless, omniscient God who created us to act according to our nature.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Is my opinion competely wrong and stupid?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I personally don't think that it is even possible for God to have made us any more free. If He made us such that we could act out of character, our actions would be random and meaningless. For I could want to help an old lady cross the street but end up spitting on her and walking away instead. And freedom to act indeterminately would require God to be temporal, which is manifestly untrue. He could still be considered 'omniscient' in that He would know all that was knowable, but He would continually be increasing in knowledge. So I don't see how God could have made us more free. <br><br>Those are my thoughts.

Kalled...<br>Are you familiar with the Westminster Confession of Faith? I’ll quote just a part of it:<br><br>[color:red]Chap IX, I & II: “God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good, or evil.<br>Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.”</font color=red><br><br>You know the rest of the story, he (we) fell from it! Now we have “freedom” to choose what we want. Our problem is what we want is anything but that which God wants. We run headlong away from him. We are totally free to choose according to our nature---and we do. “—the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” Rom 8: 7,8<br><br>This is why regeneration is absolutely necessary. We must be quickened---brought back to life (spiritually) before we can respond to God in faith. [color:red]“---by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good.”</font color=red> (WCF IX:IV)<br><br>There are some great resources right here at the Highway. Here’s a couple. It’s great to take advantage of the free education that is available here. And---there’s no final exam!<br><br>http://www.the-highway.com/WCFIndex.html see Chap IX)<br>http://www.the-highway.com/Myth.html (Myth of the Free Will)<br>

I think Greg summed it up perfectly with: <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]If He made us such that we could act out of character, our actions would be random and meaningless. For I could want to help an old lady cross the street but end up spitting on her and walking away instead.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Even if we were free in the Arminian sense, which would mean that we could choose contrary to how we would, we could never know that we had such freedom unless God in His word told us. In other words, wouldn't someone have to be omniscient to know that his choices were not being caused by something in the universe? This should at least make the Arminian pause. The best point is pasted above, I believe. The irony is, Arminianism actually destroys human responsibility by allowing for choices to spring from nothing, without ryhme reason or cause.<br><br>Ron

Dave,<br>they that are in the flesh means the non believer right? Because I feel like I am in the flesh a lot.

What about John the Baptist...where was his free will when he was born with the holy spirit....seems like he had a bit of a head start than the rest

But I am saved and I have laughed at people because they look strange....but I felt bad afterwards and knew I shouldn't have done it. So, we can choose the wrong thing don't you think?

I dunno, Some times I feel a lot of the difference between the two views is one semantics. Ask an Arminian what the Calvinist view is, then ask a Calvinist what the Arminian view is, then check the two answers against what each would self-describe and you would think that two different languages are being spoken. <br><br>I was delighted to see you quote from the ESV--it is my favorite, with #2 way back in the pack<br><br>gil

gailmac:<br><br>Are your referring to my comment about inability to act contrary to one's nature?

Dave,<br>yes.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The irony is, Arminianism actually destroys human responsibility by allowing for choices to spring from nothing, without ryhme reason or cause.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Ron, that's a good Point. John Frame, in his book, "No other God:A Response to Open Theism", makes similar statements when he uses an analogy in a court setting using example of a man, named Hubert who supposedly has the so-called libertarian freedom. Frame says :<br><blockquote>"Civil courts normally assume the opposite of libertarianism, namely, that the conduct of criminals arises from motives...If Hubert's action could be shown to be causeless, independent of motives, then he would likely be judged insane and therefore not responsible, rather than guilty. Such an act would be an accident, not a purposeful choice. Indeed, if Hubert's action was completely independent of his character, desires, and motives, one could well ask in what sense this action was really Hubert's. And if it was not Hubert's action, how can he be held responsible for it? We see, then, that rather than being the foundation of moral responsibility, libertarainism destroys it."</blockquote><br><br>He provides an excellent critique of the arminian and open-theist idea of liberatarianism on pages 122-130.<br><br>in Christ,<br>Carlos

gailmac<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]they that are in the flesh means the non believer right? </font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Yes. Please see my response to waronthesaints on this passage for more.<br>Romans8_7_thewill<br>It should in the middle of the post somewhere.<br><br>in Christ,<br>Carlos

Carlos,<br><br>Without looking, I bet you are talking about chapter eight of J.F's book. That portion of the book was most excellent. I am not familiar with Bruce Ware's new book on the subject of Open Theism. Have you read it?<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Ron

Carlos is correct. “....they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”v. 8 But please don’t overlook verse 9..”But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.” <br><br>If you are still carrying around flesh you will have these spiritual battles throughout your life. Look over in Chapter 7---Paul talked about the struggle that we all have to one degree or another. I faintly remember a quote from a great 19th century author- -“Hannah Whithall Smith” and I think it was in her book “The Christians Secret to a Happy Life” and it went something like “...the closer we get to our Lord the more we see his Holiness and the more it reveals our utter sinfulness”(not verbatim)<br><br>It seems to me from reading your posts that you are experiencing “Growing Pains”. These are good!<br><br>Dave<br>

Ron,<br><br>Yes it is chapter eight of Frame's book. I have considered purchasing Ware's book from discerningreader.com, but I have not done so at this time. I assume you are referencing to "Their God is Too Small." Perhaps I shall obtain it in the in future. I know that Frame thought highly of his other book "God's lesser Glory". I will likely get both.<br><br><br>in Christ,<br>Carlos