I ran across this question on another forum. I'm not good in answering these questions except to say that God is completely just and loving. Would anyone like to clear it up succinctly?
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Q: If God alone grants repentance, then why does God become angry at unrepentance? For example, in the letters of Revelation, Christ said that He gave Jezebel time to repent, but she didn't, so He's going to throw her into a bed of sickness. But if she's incapable of repenting (or you can substitute sinning Israel in various OT situations), then why give her "time"? She wouldn't have been any more able to repent two months later than two months earlier. Or, to give another example, unregenerate Israel had no more potential or ability to repent 390 days into the Babylonian siege than on day one. It's as if God has a repentance ray-gun sitting by His side in Heaven, and He is getting wrathful toward people, clans, and nations who constitutionally can't repent, but who would repent if He would just shoot them with His ray-gun.
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ."Colossians 2:7
"Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will (Romans 9:19)?
In the following few verses the Apostle Paul answers this anticipated objection. But his answer is frankly offensive to imagine that they are as sovereign as their Creator.
Romans 2 makes the case for every human being without excuse, in spite of the fact of election.
I ran across this question on another forum. I'm not good in answering these questions except to say that God is completely just and loving. Would anyone like to clear it up succinctly?
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Q: If God alone grants repentance, then why does God become angry at unrepentance? For example, in the letters of Revelation, Christ said that He gave Jezebel time to repent, but she didn't, so He's going to throw her into a bed of sickness. But if she's incapable of repenting (or you can substitute sinning Israel in various OT situations), then why give her "time"? She wouldn't have been any more able to repent two months later than two months earlier. Or, to give another example, unregenerate Israel had no more potential or ability to repent 390 days into the Babylonian siege than on day one. It's as if God has a repentance ray-gun sitting by His side in Heaven, and He is getting wrathful toward people, clans, and nations who constitutionally can't repent, but who would repent if He would just shoot them with His ray-gun.
That which God requires and commands does not of necessity grant the ability to obedience. For example, the first and great commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. But there is none but Christ who has the ability to render that requirement. Although several lessons are evident from the examples given, one in particular stands out; a demonstration of the willful and sinful obstinacy of fallen man to conform himself/herself to the divine will of God. I apologize ahead of time if my "down and dirty" quickie response is inadequate or confusing.
Thanks, but I think the crux of the question is this. Since God has decreed who will repent, then why does He give the illusion of giving a person more time to repent, when God knows more time will not help. What is the purpose of giving more time when it is already settled?
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ."Colossians 2:7
I decided to go ahead and make a reply using some of your thoughts. Please critique as below is how I responded.
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I realize it is probably too simplistic for many, but the answer lies in Romans 9.
As far as giving more time, that shows graciousness to the person. Possibly from an arminian point of view, their mantra might be just give us more time or opportunity. Well, God is giving them both. Though as the question states or implies, man is incapable of saving themselves.
As to the implication in the question that if God commands or requires obedience, then it is necessary for the person to have the ability to be obedient. I don't think the Bible teaches that. For example, the first and great commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. But there is none but Christ who has the ability to meet that requirement. So why does God give us that commandment, when He knows full well that we cannot be obedient to it.
So, if there are questioning of God on areas of his election or providence, then using the same reasoning, questions must be ask on almost every area of theology and doctrine.
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ."Colossians 2:7
Again, the explanation as to why, if God has decreed (prescriptive/preceptive will; predestinated) the majority of fallen mankind to repent and believe knowing that none will (no ability nor desire) to do so, why does He keep them alive on earth? Of course, with this type of reasoning, why would God even bring about their conception and birth. Wouldn't seem logical that God should have immediately after Adam's transgression to not bring any human being into existence?
As Robin pointed out from God's Word in Romans 9, those who have been chosen to eternal damnation exalt God's immutable justice through them and manifest His infinite love, mercy, and grace toward those who have been predestined to salvation in Christ. God does not "love" all men indiscriminately, which is clearly taught in both the OT and NT, but He is a God of benevolence to all men (cf. Matt 5:45; Titus 3:4, where the Greek word for "kindness" is philanthropia; philanthropy).
Even the wicked do His will and bring Him glory! The elect testify to His glorious mercy and love, and the wicked give testimony to His glorious, awesome justice and holiness.
His hatred of evil is at least equal to His love towards those unworthy rebels He has chosen for Himself. The wicked are allowed to live so that they will show how sinful sin really is; how depraved and ugly, how deserving of justice.
When you read a book or watch a movie in which the villains are horrible, doing heinous deeds and laughing while they rape and plunder and murder, you get angry, do you not? Do you not want to see the good guy finally take the bad guys down in the most hideously painful and torturous way imaginable? I'll admit it. I do. I feel the same way when I see animals like the ones in Fergusen taking to the streets to demand "justice" for a thug who got exactly what he deserved.
In the same way God is glorified and His eternal goodness, holiness, justice, and the terror of His wrath is displayed for all eternity by His choice of them to do evil and then to eternally display His justice upon sin in the same lake of fire that was "prepared for the devil and his angels."
The wonder is not that God has chosen to show mercy to some and justice to the rest. The wonder is that He has chosen to show mercy to anyone at all.
This discuss reminds me of a famous prayer by Augustine. I will not quote the prayer since in doing so I would probably butcher it. However, the prayer caused huge repercussions from Pelacious (sp?) (sorry on my cell at the moment.) To an extent those repercussions are still being felt today.
Romans 2:13 makes it expressly certain that if you refuse to have the faith obey the law Paul is referencing you certainly will not be declared righteous by God. And Paul is not referencing the OT code in his statement.
Romans 2:13 makes it expressly certain that if you refuse to have the faith obey the law Paul is referencing you certainly will not be declared righteous by God. And Paul is not referencing the OT code in his statement.
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Romans 2:12-16 (ASV) "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing [them]); in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ."
1. One cannot "refuse to have the faith...", for faith is not something a person receives/accepts. But rather, faith is given to an individual when the Holy Spirit regenerates him. You either have true faith or you don't. Many have a spurious faith which is a product of their own making. But again, true saving faith is a gift of God as is true heartfelt repentance which in every case is expressed in a desire and effort to keep the holy moral law of God (Eph 2:8-10).
2. One is not "declared righteous" by God on the basis of law keeping, which Paul makes very clear in the subsequent chapters of Romans and also in his epistle to the Galatians, and elsewhere (Rom 3:20,24,28, 4:2ff; 5:1,9, 8:30; 1Cor 6:11; Gal 2:16, 3:11,24, 5:4; Titus 3:7.
The FRUIT of regeneration which inevitably follows justification is sanctification; the desire to be conformed to Christ and His perfect righteousness, which is imputed to the one justified, in the keeping of God's law. The doing of the law, albeit imperfectly rendered in this life is EVIDENCE of regeneration and true faith, but it is in no way the BASIS of justification.
Pilgrim you are fully mistaken. The law Paul references in Rom. 2:13 is NOT the written code of law.
Sorry, but YOU are mistaken for I never wrote that the "law" in Romans 2:13 was the "written code of law". Paul is addressing the fact that ALL men are condemned because they do not keep the law. He deals with two groups of individuals; those who lived before the law given on Mt. Sinai and those who lived after it was given. In the former case, he states that they have THE LAW written on their hearts and fail to live up to it and thus they will be judged. The latter group will likewise be judged for their failure to live a perfect live of law keeping.
The LAW in both cases is the holy, royal moral law of God. There are not two different laws by which all men will be judged.
The entire section from chapter 1 through 5 shows that all men are under judgment, no one keeps the law, no one is righteous, in fact no one by nature even seeks after God but ALL are under condemnation and that the only way that a man can be made right with God is through faith in the LORD Jesus Christ and having His perfect righteousness imputed to them.
Agreed..... there is no contradiction in Scripture. But there are lots of errors made by those who read the Bible. 2 Timothy 2:15 (ASV) "Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth."
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