Donations for the month of October


We have received a total of "$0" in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Forum Search
Member Spotlight
Posts: 97
Joined: April 2013
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics7,297
Posts53,252
Members964
Most Online523
Jan 14th, 2020
Top Posters
Pilgrim 14,045
Tom 4,047
chestnutmare 3,086
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,818
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Pilgrim 24
Tom 12
Robin 5
Johan 3
Readin 2
Meta4 1
Recent Posts
NeoCalvinism
by Pilgrim - Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:26 PM
The Nick-name Calvinism
by Pilgrim - Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:06 PM
Natural Theology
by Anthony C. - Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:47 AM
Wilderness Wealth
by NetChaplain - Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:57 AM
Your opinion please
by Johan - Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:03 AM
True of False
by NetChaplain - Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:26 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
#51517 Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,818
John_C Offline OP
Permanent Resident
OP Offline
Permanent Resident
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,818
What is the difference between vicarious and substitutionary atonement?

I was just browsing around checking for odd theological beliefs held by our puritan church fathers. I read that Richard Baxter held to a penal and vicarious atonement, but not substitutionary atonement. There must be a slight difference, but just wondering.

Oh, what got to me to thinking about that is that I see on the Shout Box someone named McKinley asking 'Was J.C. Ryle a 4 pointer?' Since it is at the bottom of the Shout Box, there was no answer. I couldn't find one with my browsing. I did find out that Ryle would not be a puritan as he lived afterwards.

Last edited by John_C; Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:45 PM.

John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
John_C #51519 Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Originally Posted by John_C
What is the difference between vicarious and substitutionary atonement?

I was just browsing around checking for odd theological beliefs held by our puritan church fathers. I read that Richard Baxter held to a penal and vicarious atonement, but not substitutionary atonement. There must be a slight difference, but just wondering.

Oh, what got to me to thinking about that is that I see on the Shout Box someone named McKinley asking 'Was J.C. Ryle a 4 pointer?' Since it is at the bottom of the Shout Box, there was no answer. I couldn't find one with my browsing. I did find out that Ryle would not be a puritan as he lived afterwards.
1. Richard Baxter held to a heretical view of the atonement.

2. vicarious: Suffered or done by one person as a substitute for another.

substitutionary: The act of putting one thing or person in the place of another.

3. J.C. Ryle did not hold to Definite Atonement but rather Amyraldianism or a form of it.

Now, just to add some clarification to the two terms, "vicarious" and "substitutionary". Theologically there is distinction between the two albeit the dictionary definitions look similar. Substitutionary refers to the personal aspect... He took the place of (Gk: huper), i.e., He went to the cross for those whom the Father predestined to save and as one who was personally guilty. Vicarious refers more to the actual penal judgment and penalty; God's eternal wrath was put upon Him and He had to endure physical death.


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Pilgrim #51520 Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,060
Old Hand
Offline
Old Hand
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,060
What was Richard Baxter's view of the atonement?


Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine
Hiraeth
gotribe #51521 Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Originally Posted by gotribe
What was Richard Baxter's view of the atonement?
"Baxter’s writings are a strange theological mix. He was one of a few Puritans whose doctrines of God’s decrees, atonement, and justification were anything but Reformed. Though he generally structured his theology along Reformed lines of thought, he frequently leaned towards Arminian thinking. He developed his own notion of universal redemption, which offended Calvinists, but retained a form of personal election, which offended Arminians. He rejected reprobation. He was greatly influenced by the Amyraldians and incorporated much of their thinking, including hypothetical universalism, which teaches that Christ hypothetically died for all men, but His death only has real benefit to those who believe. For Baxter, Christ’s death was more of a legal satisfaction of the law than a personal substitutionary death on behalf of elect sinners.

Baxter’s approach to justification has been called neonomianism (that is, “new law”); he said that God has made a new law offering forgiveness to repentant breakers of the old law. Faith and repentance—the new laws that must be obeyed—become the believer’s personal, saving righteousness that is sustained by preserving grace. Baxter’s soteriology, then, is Amyraldian with the addition of Arminian “new law” teaching. Happily, these erroneous doctrines do not surface much in Baxter’s devotional writings, which are geared mainly to encourage one’s sanctification rather than to teach theology." from Joel Beeke's Meet the Puritans



[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 111 guests, and 15 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
atdcross, NetChaplain, winslowlady, Zach, Daverogk
964 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
October
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,294,203 Gospel truth