The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Roman Catholicism and salvation

In His Grace,

Jason: Then show me where I misrepresented it, Scott. <br><br>[color:purple]Scott: I did.</font color=purple><br><br>Jason:This typical decry from Catholic apologists as victims of misrepresentation is tired and worn out with me.<br> <br>[color:purple]Scott: Then perhaps you should stop misrepresenting us? <br> <br>Jason, I am a Catholic. I know what I believe and I know what my Church teaches. What is quite wearing is when non-Catholics and anti-Catholics who attempt to tell others what Catholics believe, then when a Catholic says "we don't believe it the way you're presenting it," you cry "foul." You can claim to have studied all you want, the fact remains, you're not "one of us." <br> <br>Now, when I want to find about about someone or something, I don't go to the detractors of that person or position, I go to one who adheres to the point in question. I may hear out one who detracts, but I place much more credence on the statements of one who takes the positive than one who takes the negative. <br> <br>I've pointed out that you've misrepresented us, I did show where you misrepresented. If you wish to continue believing that Catholics adhere to the belief system you've presented - in the face of testimony from Catholics that say we don't - well, I can't stop such folly.<br> <br>Scott<<<<br></font color=purple> <br>

Scott,<br><br>As an apologist you should be able to provide a defense for what you believe. You haven't proved anything. It appears that Jason knows more are your church doctines than you do.<br><br>You haven't showed anybody anything except your opinion. You will need to provide Scripture and church doctrine which disproves what Jason has written. He has quoted from your church doctrine and you have only stated your opinion. I'm wondering if you're even faithful to what a Catholic believes. Your statement that Jason is misrepresenting Catholicism is simply your opinion and has no validity in fact. <br><br>You're gonna have to come up with proof. <br><br>Wes

Five_Sola: interesting. If I am understanding you right you are espousing the protestant view of works. I've never heard a catholic phrase it in this way. <br><br>[color:purple]Scott:We phrased it that way long before there was anything called "Protestantism."</font color=purple><br><br>Five_Sola: So in your thinking works are absolutely unessential to attain or maintain salvation (justification or sanctification). Works are merely the fruit we produce as we are brought closer and closer to the righteousness of Christ (never perfectly attained until glorification). <br><br>[color:purple]Scott: Well, it depends on how you're using your terminology here. Yes, works are absolutely unessential to maintaining salvation. Salvation is not something we possess here and now, it's "the prize at the end of the race." Those who persevere will attain the prize. Now the discussion would be "what is perseverence?" Does that not imply "doing something?" Initial Grace is a free gift to us, we do nothing to "earn" or "attain" that - but we can increase in holiness through good works done in the state of grace. Such works are absolutely necessary too, for without such - we'd have that "dead faith" that James refers to. <br></font color=purple><br><br>Five_Sola: Then what is the need for the sacraments of baptism, penance, etc if they do not continue or maintain salvation?<br><br>[color:purple]Scott: Again, salvation is not something that is "maintained" it is something given at the end of the race. All who "finish" will get that prize, but to one who "wins" their reward will be greater. Baptism is essential because Our Lord commands it. No one who truly believes Our Lord would not receive baptism, or "confirm" those baptismal vows through the Sacrament of Confirmation. Penance is necessary to show our sincerity when we ask for forgiveness. Penance is not always part of the Sacrament of Reconcilliation either, we can do penance at anytime - and that's part of the "works" that James refers to that show a "saving faith."<br></font color=purple><br><br>Five_Sola: Purgatory for that matter is unnecessary also since the works we do are in the reward category and thus no need to purge the venial sins from our souls/body. <br><br>[color:purple]Scott: When we're in Purgatory, it's too late for works. We are there because of a lacking somewhere. Now, those still living can dedicate their good works to the "poor souls in Purgatory" if they choose. If they do so, they receive none of the merit, for they have "given" it to others who can no longer merit for themselves. There's no precise math for Purgatory, we have no idea how long it will last - we only know that nothing impure can enter heaven - and if we have one iota of "stain" against us - that must be cleansed. Also, our "works" are tested by fire (quite Scriptural) and those who are "tested" and have "works made of wood and straw" those people will "suffer loss," right? This is talking about something after this life, so unless you believe there will be suffering in heaven, then there's "another place" that's not quite hell, but where those who are saved must endure suffering - and the Bible says we ALL will be tested in this manner.<br></font color=purple><br><br>Five_Sola: I am asking these questions because you don't sound like any Romanist I've met, and I've met very educated ones. The lucky ones who became christians and left the Roman "church".<br> <br>[color:purple]Scott: Hmmm, that sounds like a thinly veiled ad hominem. If I don't leave the Catholic Church, I am "uneducated." If you didn't mean it that way, then an apology is in order. Actually, one is in order either way you may have meant it.<br><br><font face="Brush Script MT" class="bigger">Scott</font><<<<br></font color=purple>

Wes, Jason and I have gone around the block more than once in other forums. I can, and have provided him with Church documents and Scripture. I even provided such in my previous message - I just didn't cite chapter and verse throughout. I am quite capable of providing more detail and citation, and since you ask - I will.<br> <br><font face="Brush Script MT" class="bigger">Scott<<<</font>

Scott writes: I've pointed out that you've misrepresented us, I did show where you misrepresented.<br><br>Jason: All I've seen is your attempt to correct things I did not say, with the exception of "increase in Justification" which is plain Tridentine language. If you want to explain that one away, we're all ears.<br><br><br>Scott writes: You can claim to have studied all you want, the fact remains, you're not "one of us."<br><br>Jason: Well Scott, does one need to hold to a position in order to accurately understand it? Does one need to be a practicing Catholic in order to study Catholicism and apprehend its dogmas? If this is not necessary, then your entire post is pointless to our discussion and nothing more than smokescreen.<br><br>If you would like to press this idea that one must personally own a position in order to really understand it, then you have undermined your entire apologetics enterprise, my friend. I expect you to remove any and all criticisms of Protestant positions such as Sola Scriptura from your web site, since being a Catholic, there is no way you could truly understand our doctrine since you're not "one of us" and therefore you can't interact with it intelligently.<br><br>So Scott, could you understand Roman Catholic doctrine when you were a Lutheran? How did you ever convert to Roman Catholicism as a Protestant if Protestants can't comprehend Roman Catholic theology without first becoming Roman Catholic? Perhaps you have finally, unwittingly, admitted what converts to Roman Catholicism must do in order to convert - surrender all rational powers to the Magisterium in an act of blind faith.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Jason.

Jason, this is truly helpful and very thorough. Your point about RC justification being more disposition than position was good. I love protestants and Catholics, but reading through that just makes me thankful for the simplicity of the true gospel. <br><br>RefBap

Jason<br><br>I dare say that you understand Roman Catholism better than most RCs understand their own doctrine.<br>I am curious about the adding to justification part. How else could that be interpreted?<br><br>It sounds like Scott is in disagreement with the Trent.<br><br>Tom

Thanks RefBap,<br><br>Though after thinking about it, a clearer statement would be that it is a position based upon disposition rather than a position by imputation. The emphasis is on disposition, though they would not deny it is positional, it's just that the declaration comes from actually being just rather than being reckoned as just.<br><br>God bless my friend,<br><br>Jason

[color:purple]Scott:</font color=purple> Well, it depends on how you're using your terminology here. Yes, works are absolutely unessential to maintaining salvation. Salvation is not something we possess here and now, it's "the prize at the end of the race." Those who persevere will attain the prize. Now the discussion would be "what is perseverence?" Does that not imply "doing something?" Initial Grace is a free gift to us, we do nothing to "earn" or "attain" that - but we can increase in holiness through good works done in the state of grace. Such works are absolutely necessary too, for without such - we'd have that "dead faith" that James refers to. <br><br>Five Sola: Well, now the clarifications are out I can say that you are not espousing a protestant/biblical teaching. Age is always an enemy with me (and I am a relatively young man) because I can't ever remember the text I am wanting to qoute . (so anyone out there who can provide the text I am trying to qoute please do so, thanks). Salvation is always in Scripture a "already/not yet" scheme. We do not have perfected salvation but we do have salvation. Christ mentions that those the Father have given him [elect] He [Christ] will raise up in the last day. Not IF they continue, not hopefully if they finish he will, no he WILL raise them up to glory. The Romans 8 passage gives the famous 'chain of salvation' as it has been called and it is a if/then series that is the previous happens the latter will of course follow. By the time we arrive at the end it states that those God Justifies he will glorify. Also notice the use of past tense...it is not something open to a maybe. There are numerous passages establishing the perserveration of the Saints as a journey but one that WILL be finished by the Grace of God. I suggest if that is the path you want to discuss then lets open a new thread and focus on that.<br><br>On the topic of purgatory, I think your missing the point (as most RCC's do) If Christ sacrifice was complete as you claim (and it was) then there are no more sins held to our account. We are blameless before our God. I know some of that has to do with how RCCers misapply justification to the whole topic. But when God looks to my 'account' He sees Christ righteousness. Christ has advocated for me and had me legally declared pure. I'm not yet, not until glorification, that gets back to the already/not yet aspect of salvation.<br><br>I do agree that salvation is not something maintained, rather given at the point of justification and is something we have for certain until we reach Glory. This certainity is not from our works or actions through life (though if no fruit/works are seen then that certainty should be re-evaluated) but only by the Grace of God and the promise of Christ to hold us within his hands till eternity.<br><br>[color:purple]Scott: Hmmm, that sounds like a thinly veiled ad hominem. If I don't leave the Catholic Church, I am "uneducated." If you didn't mean it that way, then an apology is in order. Actually, one is in order either way you may have meant it.</font color=purple><br><br>well my use of the word educated was not intended to imply anything concerning you, it was to show the person I am refering was not some person ignorant of RCC teachings, he was raised in it. I should have been more clear on that. My emphasis, if any, was on his aspect of 'christian' since being a Roman Catholic he was not a christian. (I do believe their can be christian catholics but only if they are ignorant of their "churches" teachings since RCC teaching is anti-christian)<br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Salvation is through Christ alone and His finished work on the Cross. Catholics DO believe that "saving faith" is comprised of both "faith" and "works" but it's not our works that save. Our works, done in the state of grace, lead to sanctification. Such "works" do absolutely no good to one not already on the path to salvation. I hope this helps clarify. <p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Hi Scott,<br><br>I trust that when you say that "Catholics DO believe" such and so, what you mean is that the "Roman Catholic church teaches..." those doctrines that you embrace. In other words, in these discussions what is relevant is not the beliefs of individuals who call themselves Catholics, but rather what the church officially teaches. <br><br>Assuming, therefore, that in your estimation your beliefs are consistent with and reflect Roman Catholicism maybe you might consider addressing the following points for clarification.<br><br>(1) Is justification a process that encompasses sanctification?<br><br>(2) Are one's post-baptismal works meritorious in any way? <br><br>Ron<br><br>

Five_Sola,<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Five Sola: Well, now the clarifications are out I can say that you are not espousing a protestant/biblical teaching. Age is always an enemy with me (and I am a relatively young man) because I can't ever remember the text I am wanting to qoute . (so anyone out there who can provide the text I am trying to qoute please do so, thanks). Salvation is always in Scripture a "already/not yet" scheme. We do not have perfected salvation but we do have salvation. Christ mentions that those the Father have given him [elect] He [Christ] will raise up in the last day. Not IF they continue, not hopefully if they finish he will, no he WILL raise them up to glory.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Could these be the texts you're referring to?<br><br>John 10:27-30<br>"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one." <br><br>John 6:44<br>"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." <br><br>Philippians 1:6<br>"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" <br><br>Ephesians 2:8-10<br>"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." <br><br>Wes<br><br><br><br>

Recently I was accused of only posting my "opinions" in a response to Jason. Below I have taken a couple messages (which were the ones accused of only presenting my opinions), leaving all the text that was in the originals - and inserting Church teaching and Scriptural references to show my initial statements certainly were NOT mere opinions, but well grounded in the teachings of the Church and Scripture. This is also now posted on my website. What I am adding today is [color:purple]in purple</font color=purple>, and quotes from Church teaching and Scripture is indented and [color:red]in red</font color=red>.<br><br>Scott writes: Purgatory is where any unconfessed venial sins and/or sins not fully contrite for - are "purged" or "cleansed" as Scripture states, "nothing unclean can enter heaven."<br><br>Jason replies: Just for the sake of Protestants who might not know, it is significant that these purgatorial punishments by which sins are cleansed, are for the express purpose of making satisfaction for sin, inflicted by God's holiness and justice on an albeit justified person, which is necessary for the full remission of sin and to placate the divine justice due to their sin. That is, these purgatorial punishments are inflicted by God's sanctity and justice for the purpose of expiation because the justified person is only forgiven the "eternal punishment" of sin and not the "temporal punishment" of sin, which can only be satisfied through sufferings.<br><br>[color:purple]And Scott responds: Again, Jason overstates the case a bit, attempting to prove a point. Rather than just listen to the "opinions" Jason stated above, let's look at some real Catholic teaching on the matter:</font color=purple><br> <br>[color:red]<blockquote>CCC 1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[Cf. 1 Cor 3:15 ; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31 .] "<br><br>CCC 1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. [color:blue]These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.</font color=blue> A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.[Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"</blockquote></font color=red><br> <br>[color:purple]Hence we see, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that Purgatory is not an absolute necessity for all Christians to endure, for it is possible that one could reach complete purification on this earth. We see that the suffering endured is not some vengence from God, as Jason appears to imply in his carefully selected words.<br> <br><font face="Brush Script MT" class="bigger">Scott</font><br> <br>PS - Wes commented on one of my messages that I presented only my opinions (which wasn't true, I referenced the Scriptures in the message Wes responded to, I just didn't cite chapter and verse) and in this message from Jason, we have no reference to Church teaching or to Scripture - all we have is "Jason's opinions." Will Wes talk to Jason about this? :-)<br><br><br>Wes' message:</font color=purple><br> <br><blockquote>Scott,<br><br>As an apologist you should be able to provide a defense for what you believe. You haven't proved (sic) anything. It appears that Jason knows more are your church doctines than you do.<br><br>You haven't showed anybody anything except your opinion. You will need to provide Scripture and church doctrine which disproves what Jason has written. He has quoted from your church doctrine and you have only stated your opinion. I'm wondering if you're even faithful to what a Catholic believes. Your statement that Jason is misrepresenting Catholicism is simply your opinion and has no validity in fact. <br><br>You're gonna have to come up with proof. <br><br>Wes </blockquote><br><br>[color:purple]Below is the message that Wes commented on, this time with Scriptural and Church citations added in (words I add today will be in [color:purple]purple</font color=purple>, quotes will be in [color:red]red</font color=red>):</font color=purple><br> <br>Scott wrote: Jason - you misrepresent Catholic Teaching, and I was attempting to clarify it. There is no "increase in justification" for justification is the "final phase" in the economy of salvation. Those justified ARE saved, period. Good works done in the state of grace (grace preceeding) are meritorious and lead to an increase in sanctification. Sanctification can lead to more rewards in heaven - but if one is not sanctified, he will not be justified and if not justified, will not be "saved." <br><br>[color:purple]I must add here, the Church often uses the terms of sanctified and justified synonymously:</font color=purple><br>[color:red]<blockquote>CCC 2813. "In the waters of Baptism, we have been 'washed . . . SANCTIFIED . . . JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.'[2 Cor 6:11 .] Our Father calls us to holiness in the whole of our life, and since 'he is the source of (our) life in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and . . .sanctification,'[1 Cor 1:30 ; cf. 1 Thess 4:7.] both his glory and our life depend on the hallowing of his name in us and by us. Such is the urgency of our first petition. By whom is God hallowed, since he is the one who hallows? But since he said, 'You shall be holy to me; for I the LORD am holy,' we seek and ask that we who were SANCTIFIED in Baptism may persevere in what we have begun to be. And we ask this daily, for we need sanctification daily, so that we who fail daily may cleanse away our sins by being SANCTIFIED continually.... We pray that this sanctification may remain in us.[St. Cyprian De Dom. orat. 12: PL 4,527A; Lev 20:26.]"</blockquote></font color=red><br>[color:purple]So I can understand how Jason, who takes a bit of a different view/definition of justification, has misunderstood and misapplied Catholic teaching on this matter.</font color=purple><br><br>Your out-of-context quotes from Catholic teaching are very misleading. You cannot take snippets from our Faith and then present your argumentation. Catholicism includes what I have said, thus an out-of-context quote that ignores a more complete treatment of the subject doesn't tell the whole story here. I don't accuse you of deliberately being deceptive, for I believe you're only repeating propaganda that you've been taught regarding the Catholic Faith. Nonetheless, you're not presenting the truth regarding the Catholic Faith if you don't present the whole truth. Might I suggest, if you (or anyone else) has a challenge regarding Catholicism - let a Catholic represent his/her Faith. My purpose in answering this thread was not to challenge RefBap - but to clarify Catholic teaching on this matter. I am not attempting to deceive anyone here regarding the Church's teaching on sanctification or justification - I hope you're open to hearing the full story, and not just what those who have an agenda against the Catholic Church have to say.<br><br>We had a very similar discussion in the #CathApol Chatroom earlier this evening (I guess that's really "yesterday" now). I presented this "hierarchy" in regard to [color:purple]grace/</font color=purple>works/sanctification/justification [color:purple]and I used the terms of sanctification and justification in the way I believe Jason (and much of Protestantism) uses them</font color=purple>:<br><br>Catholicism is not a "works = salvation" system at all.<br>for without GRACE - works are nothing.<br>without WORKS there is no sanctification.<br>without SANCTIFICATION there is no justification.<br>without JUSTIFICATION there is no SALVATION.<br><br>It all begins with Grace.<br><br>[color:red]<blockquote>CCC 1996. "Our JUSTIFICATION comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.[Cf. Jn 1:12-18 ; Jn 17:3 ; Rom 8:14-17 ; 2Pet 1:3-4.]"<br><br>CCC 1692. "The Symbol of the faith confesses the greatness of God's gifts to man in his work of creation, and even more in redemption and SANCTIFICATION. What faith confesses, the sacraments communicate: by the sacraments of rebirth, Christians have become 'children of God,'[Jn 1:12 ; 1Jn 3:1 .] 'partakers of the divine nature.'[2Pet 1:4.] Coming to see in the faith their new dignity, Christians are called to lead henceforth a life 'worthy of the gospel of Christ.'[Phil 1:27 .] They are made capable of doing so by the grace of Christ and the gifts of his Spirit, which they receive through the sacraments and through prayer."<br></blockquote></font color=red><br><br>Paul teaches, quite consistently, that we must persevere in our faith to be saved. James, likewise says that a faith that has no works is not a "saving faith." Throughout the NT we're told of all the things we must "do" (works) or we do not have that "saving faith."<br><br>[color:red]<blockquote><br>1Tim4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. (NAS)<br><br>Rom2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; (NAS)<br><br>Rom5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (NAS)<br><br>2Th1:4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. (NAS)<br><br>1Tim6:11 But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and 12 fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. (NAS)<br><br>2Tim3:10-17 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (NAS)<br><br>2Pet1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For IF these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (NAS)<br><br>CCC 162. "Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: 'Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.'[1 Tim 1:18-19 .] To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith;[Cf. Mk 9:24 ; Lk 17:5 ; Lk 22:32 .] it must be 'working through charity,' abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.[Gal 5:6 ; Rom 15:13 ; cf. Jam 2:14-26 .]"<br></blockquote></font color=red><br><br>Quite often challengers to Catholicism will point out Paul contrasting Faith and Works - but invariably, Paul is speaking about "works of the law" and NOT "works done in/by/through Grace." As I mentioned earlier, Paul also, quite often, speaks of "persevering" and "running to win..." (etc.) so Paul too sees the importance of "works" in a "saving faith." James and Paul are quite consistent when read in the proper perspective and context.<br><br>[color:red]<blockquote><br>Rom3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. (NAS)<br><br>Rom3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (NAS)<br><br>Gal2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. (NAS)<br><br>Gal3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? (NAS)<br><br>Gal3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." (NAS)<br><br>John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." 28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One he has sent." <br><br>Eph2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (NAS)<br><br>1Tim2:9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. (NAS)<br><br>1Tim6:17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. 18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed. (NAS)<br></blockquote></font color=red><br><br>[color:purple]That last one says it all quite nicely. We are to be rich in good works, storing them up for a treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that we may take hold of that which is life indeed (eternal life).</font color=purple><br><br>[color:red]<blockquote><br>John 7:18 He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.<br></blockquote></font color=red><br><br>[color:purple]John tells us that one who works for the honor of the one sent is a man of truth.</font color=purple><br><br><font face="Brush Script MT" class="bigger">In JMJ,<br><br>Scott<<<</font><br>CathApol Chatroom<br><br>PS - So, I submit to both Wes and Jason that what I initially said was not merely my own opinions, but quite reflective of the teachings of the Catholic Church, which are quite Scriptural, and Scriptures themselves. I would hope that both Wes and Jason will have the integrity to apologize for falsely accusing me of posting only my opinions and not representing Church teaching.

Laz,<br> <br>Any person in Purgatory IS SAVED and ALREADY JUDGED. EVERY SINGLE PERSON in Purgatory WILL "make it" to Heaven - not even ONE will be lost, for the "judgment" is complete, though the purification may not be. Jason picks and chooses which parts of Catholic teaching he wishes to represent, and leaves out key parts that negate his conclusions. Please see the other message I posted earlier today that includes many Church and Scriptural references to this topic.<br> <br>In JMJ,<br><font face="Brush Script MT" class="bigger">Scott<<<</font>

Scott,



In His Grace,