Donations for the month of October


We have received a total of "$0" in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Forum Search
Member Spotlight
Posts: 97
Joined: April 2013
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics7,297
Posts53,252
Members964
Most Online523
Jan 14th, 2020
Top Posters
Pilgrim 14,045
Tom 4,047
chestnutmare 3,086
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,818
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
gotribe 1,060
Top Posters(30 Days)
Pilgrim 24
Tom 12
Robin 5
Johan 3
Readin 2
Meta4 1
Recent Posts
NeoCalvinism
by Pilgrim - Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:26 PM
The Nick-name Calvinism
by Pilgrim - Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:06 PM
Natural Theology
by Anthony C. - Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:47 AM
Wilderness Wealth
by NetChaplain - Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:57 AM
Your opinion please
by Johan - Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:03 AM
True of False
by NetChaplain - Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:26 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
#56527 Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
042Dave Offline OP
Plebeian
OP Offline
Plebeian
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

Many wrestle believing free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty. But I think the Westminster Confession solved this paradox some 300 years ago.

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

In modern English provided by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

The way I understand this is, we freely choose what we want based on the reasons (secondary causes) God sent to create our choices.

Another way to say it is that every free choice people make stems from a reason or situation God created for them to base it on, from eternity.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
"Free Will" as historically defined by non-Reformed churches, sects, cults, etc. is the ability of a person to choose whatever he wants/desires without restriction. They believe that the "will" is an independent part of man and determines all that a person will and can do.

The Bible and historically, the creeds and confessions of the original churches that were part of the Protestant Reformation and those that followed them rejected the Arminian/semi-Pelagian doctrine of "Free Will" because it violates the doctrine of "Total Depravity/Inability". Jonathan Edwards, in his treatise, "The Freedom of the Will", correctly stated that man is free to choose whatever he so desires according to his nature. Thus, an unregenerate person will ALWAYS choose that which is evil and contrary to the will of God because they are spiritually dead.

Martin Luther preceding Edwards understood this same truth which he wrote most marvelously in his well known book, The Bondage of the Will.

The "secondary causes" are simply God in His providence using situations, things, etc., to determine the 'path' of individuals, whether good or bad to accomplish His 'good pleasure (indeterminate council) (cf. Prov 16:9; Isa 46:9-11; Acts 2:22-24; et al).


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
042Dave Offline OP
Plebeian
OP Offline
Plebeian
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
I agree with the Reformed understanding. But I believe the Westminster Confession takes it one step further and shows how people incur guilt in their choices. Because it is what they want most to do. And yet God controls their choices by sending the various reasons they base their choices on. So this is how the world operates in general before salvation comes into view.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Originally Posted by 042Dave
But I believe the Westminster Confession takes it one step further and shows how people incur guilt in their choices.
My only hesitancy in the above statement is that I would have stated it as: 'and shows how people incur further guilt in their choices', since all are guilty before God having the penalty of Original Sin (inherited corruption of nature and the imputed guilt of Adam's sin) upon them. grin


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
042Dave Offline OP
Plebeian
OP Offline
Plebeian
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
All incur greater guilt in time. Degrees of suffering in Hell depict this. God's judgements show far greater sin being committed by those under his wrath than the rest.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Originally Posted by 042Dave
All incur greater guilt in time. Degrees of suffering in Hell depict this. God's judgements show far greater sin being committed by those under his wrath than the rest.
So, help me out here. Why is anyone going to be cast into the Lake of Fire? Does ANYONE do good (Rom 3:10-18)? What is sin but the transgression of the law of God. Thus, everyone whom God has not elected to salvation is worthy of damnation for none will have ever had one thought, not one deed, no not even one holy desire to do good from their conception to death. And, even if one could have lived a perfectly holy life, they would still be under the just wrath of God for they are guilty of Adam's sin (Rom 5:12-14, 9:6ff; 1Cor 5:21,22). So please tell me, why would God give less punishment to someone who has never done good over another? What "good deed" would "merit" any alleviation of eternal punishment? scratchchin

Oh, can you be so kind as to provide me with some biblical passages that clearly teach that there are going to be different levels of punishment in Hell? It has been my understanding over many years that one transgression of sin is worthy of the full wrath of God and eternal damnation. Perhaps I am in error. And if I am then by all means I truly desire to be corrected so that I can cast that error far from me... Thanks! grin


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
042Dave Offline OP
Plebeian
OP Offline
Plebeian
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
I'm surprised you are a moderator and are not aware of the degrees of suffering in Hell.

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,046
Likes: 13
Originally Posted by 042Dave
I'm surprised you are a moderator and are not aware of the degrees of suffering in Hell.
Please set aside your "surprise that I am a moderator" (I am not aware that holding to a doctrine of decrees of suffering in Hell is a prerequisite to being a moderator of this board?) and respectfully respond to the first part of my response to you above and honor my sincere request to provide biblical support for "degrees of punishment in hell".

Thank you


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
042Dave Offline OP
Plebeian
OP Offline
Plebeian
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
Sorry. But for your info, scripture teaches degrees of suffering in hell as it does degrees of reward in heaven. Here's a couple of passages to consider; There will be degrees of punishment Mk 12:40 pp Lk 20:47 See also Mt 11:22,24; Lk 12:47-48

Manser, M. H. (2009). Dictionary of Bible Themes: The Accessible and Comprehensive Tool for Topical Studies. London: Martin Manser.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 111 guests, and 15 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
atdcross, NetChaplain, winslowlady, Zach, Daverogk
964 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
October
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,294,203 Gospel truth