The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Falling away from what?

I have just been reading AW Pink's commentary on Hebrews 6:1-6. He, of course, is Calvinistic, believing that a truly saved person can not "fall away". Never having been taught Calvinism, I now have a much better understanding of this doctrine than before. It has never been clear to me how a person who goes through all the expressions of being saved can in fact remain spiritually unborn.<br><br>He says, for example, they were enlightened in their natural senses that inspires action but not in the spiritual sense that transforms, they tasted of the heavenly gift (Christ or the Spirit) meaning they "have to a certain degree understood and relished the revelation of mercy; like the stony-ground hearers they have received the Word with a transient joy". And so on. <br><br>To my thinking, this creates an even greater danger and fear than that of falling away. What assurance do I have that I am not one of "those"? The heart is deceptive above all things and desperately wicked. Even if I have been a Christian for 30 years, it might be by shear blind tenacity on my part like so many following false religions and not a true Christian at all. If I have never been persecuted, how do I know I am not a 'stony ground' hearer?<br><br>This would seem to be more a basis for insecurity than security.<br><br>A question I have with this Calvinistic view is if those who fall away in this text were never born again in the first place, what's the point of the warning? If they are not saved to begin with, what are they going to lose by 'falling away'? What are they falling away from?<br>

There's a third view in relation to that passage. The 1st being that one can lose their salvation and the 2nd one that they were never reborn to begin with. <br><br>Since its been some time, I will have to do some digging to completely explain the third view held by some. Maybe some of our experts here will explain it fully. But, it has to do that the 1st view is impossible and the 2nd view does not come into play here. It is speaking of Christians who are in open rebellion and out of fellowship and being disciplined. <br><br>I will have to say that the 2nd view is cleaner.

Eternal security (as it is sometimes called) brings to me a crisis on this 1 verse:<blockquote>[color:blue]For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,</font color=blue> Hebrews 6:4 (ESV)</blockquote>I have always been under the impression that the only people who receive the Holy Spirit are those who go to Christ and are saved. So this verse confuses me on the issue because it is speaking of people who have [color:blue]"shared in the Holy Spirit"</font color=blue>, which to me means they had the Holy Spirit. Am I interpreting wrong or something? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/confused.gif" alt="confused" title="confused[/img]

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Costello:<br><br>First of all be confident that these verses Do Not teach the loss of salvation by the elect. Granted, these are difficult verses, but as I have stated before concerning other difficult verses this would be a rather nebulous way to teach such an important doctrine.<br><br>I have found it extremely helpful in understanding Heb 6: 1-8 that when you come to words such as “those”, “they”, “them” that you think in terms “corporate”. Think of “they” as “The First Hebrew Church” at the corner of 1st and Main downtown Jerusalem- - -or the “Holy Church of the Immaculate....” Catholic church at 2nd and Main downtown Rome.....or even the “First Presbyterian” at 3rd and Main in downtown Chicago.<br><br>The folks to whom the writer is addressing (Hebrews) were in danger of reinstituting a practice that was no longer needed- - -animal sacrifice or another sacrifice to be added to one that has “once for all” been made. If Christianity is good, then a mixture of Christianity and Judaism is better...right?.....Wrong!!<br><br>Now, if the “First Hebrew Church”, who have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, have once been enlightened, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, decides that they (the Elders of this church) are going to re-establish the sacrifice of animals and sprinkle the blood of goats, sheep etc in addition to Christ’s sacrifice then they (this church) have fallen away. How did these particular Elders come to be in charge anyway? Perhaps they took a vote after 5 minutes of deliberation and got on with the “singing of praise choruses”. However it happened, this group has fallen away...! Can they be re-newed to repentance? Yes.....but not as long as they continue to crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame, v6. by continuing the practice of animal sacrifice. It’s not needed and contradictory.<br><br>Now, can someone in this church be among the elect of God? Absolutely! Can they grow in the “grace and knowledge”-?....might be a little difficult given the course this church has taken. Have they lost their salvation because this church took a wrong turn. Absolutely not!<br><br>Another thing I have found helpful with these verses is to read and insert the verses in Chapter 10:4-10 right after reading 6:6. (“For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. therefore when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and Offering you have not desired”........ and following.) <br><br>Hope this is helpful.<br><br>Dave<br><br>“Open thou mine eyes that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law” Ps 119:<br>

Dear Costello:<br><br>You asked the following question(s):<br><br>"What assurance do I have that I am not one of "those"? The heart is deceptive above all things and desperately wicked. Even if I have been a Christian for 30 years, it might be by shear blind tenacity on my part like so many following false religions and not a true Christian at all. If I have never been persecuted, how do I know I am not a 'stony ground' hearer?"<br><br><br>I believe you are asking excellant questions, which fortunately have been answered by the scriptures and the Reformers and Puritans that followed them. The first epistle of John was written primarily to address this issue of assurance of faith and Dr. Joel Beeke, who did his doctoral dissertation on the Reformers (Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, etc) and their followers (Owen, Westminster Divines, etc) postion on this crucial doctrine, is now preaching a sermon series on this epistle and these can be heard at the following address:<br><br>http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?seriesOnly=true&sourceID=hnrc&keyword=Series+on+the+Epistles+of+John&keyworddesc=Series+on+the+Epistles+of+John<br><br>His dissertation on assurance has been edited for the general reader and has been made available in the form of a book called "The Quest for Full Assurance", which is an easy and most wonderful read (don't be scared off by the doctoral disertation label) for only $7.50 and is available at:<br><br>http://www.heritagebooks.org/item.asp?bookId=83<br><br>I pray this helps you find the assurance that the scriptures reveal and the Reformers and Puritans preached so fully and wonderfully about.<br><br>In Him,<br><br>Gerry

Costello,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]A question I have with this Calvinistic view is if those who fall away in this text were never born again in the first place, what's the point of the warning? If they are not saved to begin with, what are they going to lose by 'falling away'? What are they falling away from?</font><hr></blockquote><p>They’re falling away from the external church because they’ve never really had a genuine faith. There are those who appear to be believers, who share in the life of the church up to the moment of their apostasy. Without faith, closeness to God in the fellowship of His covenant people is no blessing; rather it subjects apostates to more severe judgment.<br><br>After sharing in all the external evidences of participation in the church through baptism, participation in the Lord’s Supper, and even experience with the gifts of the Holy Spirit they proved they were never truly born again.<br><br>The believer will make every effort to make their calling and election sure. (See 2 Peter 1:2-11)<br><br>There is a kind of falling away that is irreversible (I John 5:16). Christian salvation is final, and the decision to reject it, if made at a certain level, cannot be reversed. According to I John 2:19, anyone who made such a decision was not really a member of the household of faith, although they may have seemed to be. Judas Iscariot is the clearest example of someone who participated in the coming of the kingdom, but did not enter it. This warning is not to encourage speculation about whether others are irretrievably lost, but urges us to cling closely to the Savior ourselves.<br><br><br>Wes

Thank you each one for your replies. I’m not very good at writing and even if I was, I think it is almost an impossible task to hash out theological differences on a message board. So that is not really my objective. I’m not here to persuade anyone or to make this an attack on you or what you believe. <br><br>If I was to put a label on myself, I suppose I am about as Armenian as one can be, though I really know nothing about the guy or read anything he wrote. This question came to me after reading Pink’s commentary as I said. Having just a little understanding of how a Calvinist rationalizes a Christian can never be lost, it seems even more confusing to me than it did before I read it. <br><br><br>Dave wrote:<br>Granted, these are difficult verses, but as I have stated before concerning other difficult verses this would be a rather nebulous way to teach such an important doctrine.<br><br>I think these verses are difficult for a Calvinist but for the Armenian the understanding seems to naturally flow from what the text says.<br><br>I just want to know what a person who is not saved can fall away from. The unsaved can benefit from the atonement indirectly in several ways but that's not something they are in danger of falling away from that I can see. ALSO - IF this text is written to unbelievers, it is the only text in the Bible of its kind.<br><br>The only way I can see this is that they would be falling from a bad place in Hell to a really bad place.<br><br>In the Armenian view, these believers had reached a great height having been enlightened, partakers of the Holy Spirit, etc. Granted they had only "tasted" of the heavenly gift and the word of God and that is why they are warned and two paths are set before them. Fall away and lose everything irrevocably or press on to maturity.<br><br>It seems there is a great contradiction in Calvinism. According to limited atonement, only certain ones are to be saved and it is completely out of their control to be lost but "they have to make every effort to make their calling and election sure. (See 2 Peter 1:2-11)"<br><br>Is there - or is there not - a human side to salvation?<br><br>Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. <br><br>These believers had fallen, but not fallen away and they are also warned to repent.

Costello:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]What assurance do I have that I am not one of "those"? The heart is deceptive above all things and desperately wicked. Even if I have been a Christian for 30 years, it might be by shear blind tenacity on my part like so many following false religions and not a true Christian at all.</font><hr></blockquote><p> <br><br> I can understand that as an Arminian that you would have an enormous problem with the “assurance” of salvation. What you have today may slip away tomorrow by some wrong decision on your part. You can never be assured of your eternal destiny. Why.....because your salvation is dependent upon your “keeping” yourself saved. How can you do this? At what point in the process of backsliding and sinning have you lost this salvation? Is it after one sin....lying...two sins...add theft....three, at what point? Where is the doctrinal teaching on this so we can all know at what point we become “unborn again” so that we can become “born again, again”? Should we be baptized again after being born again, again? How long does this type of “eternal” life last? How can one base the assurance of their salvation on this “self confidence”?<br><br>In Matthew 7:22,23 Jesus said “Many will say to me in that day ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me.....” According to Arminianism Jesus needs to amend this and say “ I knew you once, but there wasn’t enough time left for another trip down the aisle when the end came so.... depart from Me......”<br><br>One must come to the realization of Who it is that does the saving. It is God! “Salvation is of the Lord” Jonah 2:9 “No man can come to Me except the Father......draw him.” Jo 6:44 “Being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it....” Phil 1:6 “ I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish....”<br>There are so many verses that speak of our eternal preservation, that salvation is by grace alone, in Christ alone that it could fill a book, and has!<br><br>Are there warnings in scripture against apostasy? Yes..! These warnings may be the very means that He intends to use to keep us from falling. I remember once while on vacation with the family we were sitting around the swimming pool and I warned my three year old about getting too close to the edge of the water for fear of falling in. I did warn him.....but do you think I’d let him fall in anyway....or if he did wouldn’t I go pull him out? Surely God is much better at this than I am, when I fall. He is surely much stronger than I. ‘Cause I’m like you...I don’t have much confidence in myself. But.......”Being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in me will perfect it...”<br><br>Dave<br><br><br>“Open thou mine eyes that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.” Ps 119:18<br>

Hi Dave, From your response, you might not have understood what I was saying. It was according to limited atonement that I ask that question.<br><br>The understanding I have of the Calvinist approach to salvation is only pre-selected individuals are determined for salvation. Isn’t that what limited atonement means? My question is- how do I know if I am pre-selected in that way? The way I understand this doctrine is that it would be possible for a person as me, to respond to the gospel, be baptized, read the bible every day, believing all the while I was saved and then find out after I’m dead I wasn’t pre-selected. What is to prevent that from happening? In that case I would have been a believer of sorts, like the people in this text, but never born again. <br><br>Maybe it would be better to ask – is there anything in the doctrine of limited atonement that absolutely prevents a “whosoever will” (John 3:16) from coming to the cross believing for salvation who was not pre-selected? <br><br>Or maybe this question – what is to prevent an unselected person from becoming a follower of Christ (for what ever reason) to never fall away but continues his whole life obedient to the Gospel, that is he honestly trusts the Lord for forgiveness and eternal life according to the scripture?<br><br><br>1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; <br>1Ti 2:4 Who will have [color:red]all men</font color=red> to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. <br>1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; <br>1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom [color:red]for all,</font color=red> to be testified in due time. <br><br>[color:red]Is it possible that the savior didn’t die for me? According to limited atonement, how do I know? </font color=red><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Is it possible that the savior didn’t die for me? According to limited atonement, how do I know? </font><hr></blockquote><p> Yes, if you are not one of the elect Christ did NOT die for you. The verses in Timothy you are quoting are out of their context. If you will look at the first couple verse of the chapter they bring you full circle back into the complete context of what Paul is saying. The word "all" also means "all kinds" in Greek which should also help you with your translation. Additionally, we have some excellent articles on-line which cover not only the passage in question, but other verses that appear to teach unlimited atonement: The Atonement.

Costello:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The understanding I have of the Calvinist approach to salvation is only pre-selected individuals are determined for salvation. Isn’t that what limited atonement means?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>It is not necessarily the Calvinistic approach that one should base his eternal destiny upon. Although the Calvinistic approach certainly squares up with scripture.<br><br>“For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy .” Romans 9:15-16<br> <br> Are you contending with God that He is not merciful enough? Are you saying that God cannot have Free Will and choose whomever He wants?<br><br> “Thou wilt say unto me, ‘Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay , of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Rom 9: 19-21<br><br>Have you considered John 17:9 Jesus says: “I pray for them: I PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine...”<br><br>You need to seriously ask the question, If Christ died for ALL men, why did He pray this way? There’s something wrong with your system of understanding. Couldn’t Jesus have left out this little clause....? <br><br>Costello....this is a Calvinistic Discussion Forum. If you are serious about coming to a knowledge of the truth, I suggest that you browse the articles and the discussions. This topic is fully covered for your edification. Joe has given you a great link below in his post to begin this journey.<br><br>Dave<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

I am well aware this is a Calvinist discussion board that is why I came here to discuss Calvinism. I have been browsing the web site and the articles. I read the link which Joe posted above and it pretty much followed Pink’s commentary. What I think I am finding for one thing, is this contradiction about the human side of salvation. <br><br><br>Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, [color:blue]Save yourselves from this untoward generation.</font color=blue> <br><br>I am also not seeing a very accurate representation of the Armenian doctrine, particularly on the view of unlimited atonement in regard to the final judgment of the wicked.<br><br>It was not only necessary for Christ to die for the sins of the redeemed but for the sins of the whole world. This does not mean that God set out to do something He was not able to complete as I am finding in the articles on this web site say. If He only intended to redeem a single group out of world why would He have let these other people be born if it is only to destroy them in Hell? <br><br>Christ died to freely offer salvation to all men, from Adam to the end of the world, who are equally eligible to receive it- though sadly not all have the same opportunity. It is absolutely necessary for this to be so, or sinners would be in the exact opposite situation as Adam, if not for the Tree of Knowledge. As Adam would have had no other opportunity but to obey God in the Garden, sinners would have no other opportunity but to live in rebellion, if not for the Cross. They have to have the personal choice of doing right or wrong with no exclusions. Since we are born from the womb dead in trespasses and sins, the only opportunity to do anything right before God, is to come to Him through faith in the shed blood of His Son. <br><br>Why did Christ die for the sins of the unredeemed? It should not be so very hard to understand. If they were never eligible for salvation in the first place, God could not condemn them for being sinners. How could say that they are guilty of rebellion, if repentance was never within their grasp? <br><br>Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; [color:blue]but now commandeth all men every where to repent:</font color=blue><br><br>So the cross, to us is salvation, to the rebels it is condemnation to death.<br><br>[color:red]God gave His Son to the whole world.</font color=red><br><br><br>The petition in Jesus prayer in John 17 could not be made for the world, but I see no support for limited atonement from that.<br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]It was not only necessary for Christ to die for the sins of the redeemed but for the sins of the whole world. This does not mean that God set out to do something He was not able to complete as I am finding in the articles on this web site say. </font><hr></blockquote><p> [color:red]In Arminianism, Christ’s death was designed to make salvation a potentially for all people, but it did not actually secure or guarantee the salvation of anyone. Fallen man determines by an act of his fallen will whether or not Christ’s work will be effective by his defective faith.</font color=red><br><br>[color:blue]In Calvinism, Christ’s death was designed to actually secure the salvation of all God’s chosen people. God has determined that all for whom Christ scarified himself will be saved.</font color=blue><br><br>In Scripture we see that Christ’s death [color:blue]ACTUALLY</font color=blue> accomplished salvation and not merely made it a [color:red]potential</font color=red>: Rom 5:8-10; 2 Cor 5:18-19; Eph 2:15-16; Col 1:21-22, and [color:blue]actually redeemed us</font color=blue>: Gal; 3:13; Tit 2:14; Heb 9:12, and [color:blue]actually saved us</font color=blue>: Luke 19:10; 1 Tim 1:15.<br><br>Jesus Christ was sent into the world to save the people God [color:blue]had given Him</font color=blue>: John 6:35-40; John 10:11, 14-18, 24-29; Eph 1:3-13.<br><br>Christ’s sacrificial and intercessory work as High Priest is for those the Father [color:blue]had given Him</font color=blue>, [color:red]not the world</font color=red>: John 17:1-11, 20, 24-26; Heb 2:17, 3:1, 9:28.<br><br>Christ’s saving work was intended to save a particular people: [color:blue]His people</font color=blue>—Matt 1:21; [color:blue]His sheep</font color=blue>, John 10:11, 15, 26; [color:blue]The Church</font color=blue>, Acts 20:28; Eph 5:25-27; [color:blue]God’s Elect</font color=blue>, Rom 8:32-34; [color:blue]His Friends</font color=blue>, John 15:13; [color:blue]For Many</font color=blue>, Matt 20:28; 26:28; Heb 9:28.<br><br>Those for whom Christ died are an innumerable host from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation in the world:—THE WORLD; Rev 5:29; John 3:16-17, 4:42; 2 Cor 5:19; 1 John 2:1-2, 4:14, and –ALL; Rom 5:18, 2 Cor 5:14-15; 1 Tim 2:4-6; Heb 2:9; 2 Pet 3:9.<br><br><ul>NOTE: The Bible often uses the words WORLD and ALL in a restricted, limited sense: Luke 2:1-2; 1 Cor 6:12, 10:23; John 12:32; 1 Cor 15:22.[/LIST] As John Owen’s argument goes: What the advocates of "unlimited atonement" grievously err on is in their understanding of the nature of the atonement. These questions must be answered: <br><br><ul>1. Did the Lord Christ actually make atonement for sin? <br>2. Did the atonement actually make satisfaction for ALL sins? <br>3. For whom did Christ actually offer Himself as an atonement for sin?[/LIST] God imposed his wrath due unto, and Christ underwent the pains of hell for, <br><br><ul>1. either all the sins of all men,<br>2. or all the sins of some men,<br>3. or some sins of all men.[/LIST]If the last, some sins of all men, then have all men some sins to answer for, and so shall no man be saved; for if God entered into judgment with us, though it were with all mankind for one sin, no flesh should be justified in his sight: “If the LORD should mark iniquities, who should stand?” Ps. cxxx. 2. We might all go to cast all that we have “to the moles and to the bats, to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty,” Isa. ii. 20, 21.<br><br>If the Second, that is it which we affirm, that Christ in their stead and room Suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world.<br><br>If the first, why then, are not all freed from the punishment of all their sins?<br><br>You will say, “Because of their unbelief; they will not believe.”<br><br>But this unbelief, is it a sin, or not?<br><br>If not, why should they be punished for it? If it be, then Christ underwent the punishment due to it, or not.<br><br>If so, then why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died from partaking of the fruit of his death?<br><br>If he did not, then did he not die for all their sins. Let them choose which part they will.

Costello:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Since we are born from the womb dead in trespasses and sins, the only opportunity to do anything right before God, is to come to Him through faith in the shed blood of His Son.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>You have stated the first part here correctly. But the second part is flawed. How is it that if we are DEAD, which you correctly state, that we are able to do this coming to HIM? The scripture states that there is NONE righteous, not one. How can this second part be possible when the bible says there is none RIGHTeous! Who are the exceptions to this NONE? That is why the word also states that one must be born again, quickened, be brought back to life before any movement toward God is possible. Man is not just sick spiritually, you rightly stated "HE's DEAD"<br><br>For whom did Christ die:<br><br>The Church Eph 5:25<br>His Sheep Jo 10:15<br>His Friends Jo 15:13<br>His Children Jo 11:52<br>The Elect Jo 17: 9 (them which Thou hast given me)<br>His People Matt 1:21<br>God's Elect Rom 8:32,33<br><br>As I've stated before all your questions have been answered on this topic in previous discussions. Here is just one of the links to those discussions. Limited Atonement<br><br>Dave<br>