Joe wrote:<br>[color:green]In Arminianism, Christ’s death was designed to make salvation a potentially for all people, but it did not actually secure or guarantee the salvation of anyone.</font color=green><br><br>Here is the rub! As I read the commentary on Hebrews 6 that is exactly the conclusion I came to about Calvinism. While it is known that Christ did secure the salvation of some, nobody would be assured of salvation because it would not be known if they were pre-selected or not. If, in the future, they ever backslide, they were never saved. That is Calvinism. What if they die before they come to the point of falling away? They would die thinking they were saved and never having fallen away, are cast into hell anyway. Therefore, all Calvinists live in the uncertainty that Christ did not die for them.<br><br>Joe wrote:<br>[color:green]Fallen man determines by an act of his fallen will whether or not Christ’s work will be effective by his defective faith.</font color=green><br><br>By what ‘will’ did Abraham offer up his son, Isaac? Was his faith defective? Or Noah build the ark; Moses lead the children of Israel, David, Job, on and on. Men have never lost the capacity to respond favorably to the WORD of God in faith. It is man’s nature that is fallen.<br><br>Why would God speak to Cain before he killed Able, if it was not in his power to make the right choice? It is because he had the capacity to make the right choice that he was guilty of murder. The ability to choose is freedom of choice.<br><br><br>Joe referenced this text in his post: 2 Cor 5:18-19;<br>[color:red]2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. <br>2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; <br>2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. </font color=red><br><br>Is that what you wanted it to say; He reconciled us and the world? Not imputing their trespasses unto them?<br><br><blockquote>NOTE: The Bible often uses the words WORLD and ALL in a restricted, limited sense: Luke 2:1-2; 1 Cor 6:12, 10:23; John 12:32; 1 Cor 15:22.</blockquote>That disclaimer of yours is rather disturbing to me if you are applying it to the above verse. Naturally the ‘world’ as used in “all the world should be taxed” is a limited sense. He wasn’t taxing Eskimos, if there were any, but you would have to give me a very good textual reason (sans the Calvinistic glasses) why world in 2 Cor. 5:19 is not meant in the broadest sense. (They are not the same Greek word either, btw.)<br><br>In answer to your argument from John Owen, I would ask you the meaning of this verse:<br><br>[color:red]Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. </font color=red><br><br>The atonement is indeed universal for all but the application of it is conditional on man’s response.<br><br>[color:red]BUT AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME.</font color=red><br><br><br>As I said above we're not likely to be able to hash out all the theological differences on a message board. I'm very greatful for the resopnses that were posted and will respond to any further posts, but I don't want to see us going in circles.<br><br>My questions which I think remain unanswered:<br><br>From a Calvinist view, how do I know I am pre-selected?<br>What were the Hebrews in 6:6 in danger of falling away from?<br><ul>Wes said they were falling away from the external church, but that does not answer to the rest of the verse IMO.[/LIST]<br>Is there a human side to the Calvinist view of Salvation?<br><ul>I presume the answer to this is 'no', which leaves an apparent contradiction IMO.[/LIST]<br>
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]If He only intended to redeem a single group out of world why would He have let these other people be born if it is only to destroy them in Hell?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Uh, that's the point of Rom. 9:15--21. God has the right to decide whom He will save and whom He will not. It is not for us to question, but we are to trust that it all works to God's glory and the good of His children.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Why did Christ die for the sins of the unredeemed? It should not be so very hard to understand. If they were never eligible for salvation in the first place, God could not condemn them for being sinners. How could say that they are guilty of rebellion, if repentance was never within their grasp?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Adam, as the head of mankind, has his sin imputed to us. Thus we all fall under the condemnation of Adam. Adam also passes his curse, original sin, on to us. Thus we are all born with sinful natures. In the same way, Christ, as the head of His Church, has His righteousness imputed to us. Thus we all fall under the justification of Christ, the Second Adam. Christ also passes His blessing, the Holy Spirit, on to us. Thus we are born again with new natures. If Christ actually did die for the sins of all men, then all are redeemed, all have His righteousness imputed to them, all are born again with new natures.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Here is the rub! As I read the commentary on Hebrews 6 that is exactly the conclusion I came to about Calvinism. While it is known that Christ did secure the salvation of some, nobody would be assured of salvation because it would not be known if they were pre-selected or not. If, in the future, they ever backslide, they were never saved. That is Calvinism. What if they die before they come to the point of falling away? They would die thinking they were saved and never having fallen away, are cast into hell anyway. Therefore, all Calvinists live in the uncertainty that Christ did not die for them.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." If we are elect, we will bear the fruits of our election: We will repent, we will come to know the joy of Christ, we will grow in faith in Him, we will obey God out of love for Him. I have faith in my salvation because I have seen these fruits in me, even though my flesh wages war against me. But this faith is not my work, but the work of the Holy Spirit in me. I could not come to this faith on my own. The Arminian position says otherwise: That I can have faith on my own, apart from the work of the Spirit in me. How is this possible, if I am "dead in trespasses and sin"? If I have enough goodness in me to muster up faith, why not enough to muster up perfect obedience without Christ? In short, the fatal flaw of Arminianism is that it takes neither man's fallen nature nor the imputation of Adam's sin to us seriously enough. It expects that we have enough goodness to approach God, and also that we have power enough to resist God's will.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]By what ‘will’ did Abraham offer up his son, Isaac? Was his faith defective? Or Noah build the ark; Moses lead the children of Israel, David, Job, on and on.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Their faith was the work of the Holy Spirit in them. Their will was the work of the Holy Spirit in them.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Men have never lost the capacity to respond favorably to the WORD of God in faith. It is man’s nature that is fallen.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Man's nature is faithless in it's fallenness! We have no capacity to trust God without His intervention! We are born into this world utterly opposed to God and His Gospel.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The atonement is indeed universal for all but the application of it is conditional on man’s response.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Then our salvation is dependent upon OUR WORK OF RESPONDING FAVORABLY TO THE GOSPEL. Responsibility for our salvation then rests with US, not with God. We may then boast in OUR OWN ABILITY to believe on the promises of God, rather than in God's mercy in Christ's dying for us while we were yet sinners.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]From a Calvinist view, how do I know I am pre-selected?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Faith based on the evidence of the good fruits promised to the saved.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]What were the Hebrews in 6:6 in danger of falling away from?<br><br>Wes said they were falling away from the external church, but that does not answer to the rest of the verse IMO.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I agree with Wes. I don't see what you don't think is addressed. In v. 8, we learn that the one who does not bring forth good fruit is burned up. Good fruit is the evidence of a saving faith, which is preceded by election. The one within the church who does not bring forth good fruit is in danger of being cast out of the church and given over to the power of Satan. Furthermore, we read in v. 9 that the the writer is "convinced of better things concerning [the Hebrews], and things that accompany salvation." In the following verses, we read that the Hebrews are to work diligently "to realize the full assurance of hope until the end"; that is, when we work diligently and obediently to God, we are assuring ourselves of the hope of salvation promised to us---so that we don't plague ourselves with the question, "Am I elect?" That's what it seems to me.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Is there a human side to the Calvinist view of Salvation?<br><br>I presume the answer to this is 'no', which leaves an apparent contradiction IMO.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>What's the contradiction? If nothing we can do saves us, but only what God does, then the Calvinist view is the most compatible with Scripture.
Last edited by CovenantInBlood; Sun Oct 26, 200310:00 PM.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]My questions which I think remain unanswered:
From a Calvinist view, how do I know I am pre-selected?
Calvinist's don't start out knowing they are predestined to salvation. They end up knowing it afterward because the Bible teaches that. Until their eyes are opened by the Holy Spirit they can't understand this truth. Like every truth about God, the doctrine of election involves mystery, and it sometimes sitrs controversy. But in Scripture it is a pastoral doctrine, helping Christians to see how great is the grace that saves them, and moving them to respond with humility, confidence, and praise. We do not know what others God has chosen among those who do not yet believe, nor why He chose us in particular. We do know that we believe now only because we were chosen, and that as believers we can rely on God to finish the good work He has begun (I Cor. 1:8, 9; Phil. 1:6; I Thes. 5:23, 24' II Tim. 1:12; 4:18). For these reasons the knowledge of election is a source of gratitude and confidence.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]What were the Hebrews in 6:6 in danger of falling away from?
Wes said they were falling away from the external church, but that does not answer to the rest of the verse IMO.
I mentioned the example of Judas Iscariot because he was assumed to be in the kingdom as a disciple of Jesus. He was thought to be enlightened by the teaching of Jesus, he tasted the heavenly gift and became a partaker of the Holy Spirit (see Luke 9:1-6) but apparently he was not born again, so he fell away.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Is there a human side to the Calvinist view of Salvation?
I presume the answer to this is 'no', which leaves an apparent contradiction IMO.
Yes, there is a human side to salvation. Man's responsibility is to repent and believe. When John writes in chapter 1:12: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God," he also mentioned "not by the will of man, but of God." So the problem that you have not yet grasped is that man is unable to respond until he is born again from above. The Spirit works at God's command according to God's will not man's will.
SCRIPTURE PROOF
I Cor. 2:14: The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
Gen. 2:17: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Rom. 5:12: Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned.
II Cor. 1:9: Yea, we ourselves had the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raiseth the dead.
Eph. 2:1-3: And you did He make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom ye also all once lived in the lusts of your flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph. 2:12: Ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Jer. 13:23: Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
Ps. 51:5: Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.
John 3:3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Rom. 3:10-12: As it is written, There is none righteous, no not one; There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God; They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one.
Job 14:4: Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
I Cor. 1:18: For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
Acts 13:41: Behold, ye despisers, and wonder and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you.
Prov. 30:12: There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, And yet are not washed from their filthiness.
John 5:21: For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom He will.
John 6:53: Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
John 8:19: They said therefore unto Him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father; if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also.
Matt. 11:25: I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes.
II Cor. 5:17: if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature.
John 14:16: (And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever,) even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth Him not, neither knoweth Him; ye know Him; for He abideth with you, and shall be in you.
John 3:19: And this is the judgment, that light is come unto the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
May the Lord be pleased to open your eyes to the wonderful truth about His amazing grace!
Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Here is the rub! As I read the commentary on Hebrews 6 that is exactly the conclusion I came to about Calvinism. While it is known that Christ did secure the salvation of some, nobody would be assured of salvation because it would not be known if they were pre-selected or not. ……. Therefore, all Calvinists live in the uncertainty that Christ did not die for them.
The reason why you think you see this is because you think Hebrews 6 is speaking to saved people, but it is not, as per my other post. Calvinism also teaches perseverance of the saints and I can assure you that I KNOW I am saved. How do I KNOW I am saved? By the evidence of a renewed life and a heart set on fire by God. I have a confidence that is overwhelming in the good works of the Gospel which I previously hated, but which I now do. I have a relationship with God. I pray and I see prayer answered. I see the lost saved and the list goes on. I know I am saved because I have been saved unto good works which I and others see evidenced in my life. I also stand secure in knowing that I am saved eternally and I will never be lost for it is God that worketh in me both to will and do of His good pleasure……. Election gives me security and removes any feelings of insecurity that could arise.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]By what ‘will’ did Abraham offer up his son, Isaac? Was his faith defective? Or Noah build the ark; Moses lead the children of Israel, David, Job, on and on. Men have never lost the capacity to respond favorably to the WORD of God in faith. It is man’s nature that is fallen.
In each of these cases MAN was CALLED by GOD….. Man did not go looking for God….. Man’s natural reaction to God without regeneration is hiding in fig leaves. Regeneration enables a man to clearly and finally see truth, before this he is blinded. Regeneration enables one to have God-like faith to believe in God.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Why would God speak to Cain before he killed Able, if it was not in his power to make the right choice? It is because he had the capacity to make the right choice that he was guilty of murder. The ability to choose is freedom of choice.
Even God himself is not totally free the way you desire to understand freedom. God cannot lie, God cannot sin, et. al., thus God is not totally free like the Arminian likes to interpret freedom. Cain DID CHOSE and had freedom to chose and chose that which he knew—sin and thus committed murder. Darkness chooses darkness for it knows not the light intimately. Your example here marvelously proves Calvinism for even when confronted directly by God, depraved man without regeneration of God's Spirit will always chose against God.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath [color:red]reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, [color:red]reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Is that what you wanted it to say; He reconciled us and the world? Not imputing their trespasses unto them?
Apparently, you missed the Greek in this verse? Notice in verse 18 the PAST tense ([color:red]reconciled, referring to the 'us') is used and in verse 19 the PRESENT tense ([color:red]reconciling) is used. [color:red]Reconciling is a process still taking place as evidenced by what Paul then says…and he hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation……. Clearly, He is not saving the WHOLE world—for some are lost. Thus, you are using the verses out of their intended purpose and context.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]NOTE: The Bible often uses the words WORLD and ALL in a restricted, limited sense: Luke 2:1-2; 1 Cor 6:12, 10:23; John 12:32; 1 Cor 15:22. That disclaimer of yours is rather disturbing to me if you are applying it to the above verse. Naturally the ‘world’ as used in “all the world should be taxed” is a limited sense. He wasn’t taxing Eskimos, if there were any, but you would have to give me a very good textual reason (sans the Calvinistic glasses) why world in 2 Cor. 5:19 is not meant in the broadest sense. (They are not the same Greek word either, btw.)
I think from my explanation above it is quite clear that you focused in on the WRONG term in the examination of the 2 Cor 5 and mixed up the PAST (referring to the "us" in the passage) and PRESENT tense meaning of the term “reconcile.” I am glad you see that the terms WORLD and ALL are used in a limited sense in some Scriptures.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]In answer to your argument from John Owen, I would ask you the meaning of this verse: Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Well YOU still have not answered John Owen’s argument? Can you? Will you? Can all men be saved? If Christ died for ALL the sins of ALL men then He died for ALL the unbelief of ALL men without exception and thus ALL men without exception would be saved—not one lost? Thus, you have a choice between universalism or the truth of Scripture?
Briefly, in the text in question some of the Pharisees had gathered around Jesus to find fault and they said to him, ‘Certainly we are not blind, are we?’ In answering this question, Jesus wisely says, if you were not only without the light (the true knowledge of God, holiness, righteousness, joy, et. al.), but also conscious of your deplorable condition and anxiously yearning for God’s salvation, no charge would be brought against you (this condition is only possible in salvation). But, then He continues and tells them their sin continues. In other words, if you do not see the greatness of your sins and miseries, and the gift of God in Christ you cannot enjoy true comfort. Compare this with John 3 and see when one sees.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]The atonement is indeed universal for all but the application of it is conditional on man’s response. BUT AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME.
When was the last time you saw a dead man receive anything?
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Is there a human side to the Calvinist view of Salvation? I presume the answer to this is 'no', which leaves an apparent contradiction IMO.
Again, you would presume wrongly. There is a human side or human choice in Calvinism. It comes after the person is made alive so he may chose and not when he is dead without the ability to chose, because he is dead in trespasses and sin. Maybe my old box example will assist you here.
Kyle wrote:[color:green]<br>Adam, as the head of mankind, has his sin imputed to us. Thus we all fall under the condemnation of Adam. Adam also passes his curse, original sin, on to us. Thus we are all born with sinful natures. In the same way, Christ, as the head of His Church, has His righteousness imputed to us. Thus we all fall under the justification of Christ, the Second Adam. Christ also passes His blessing, the Holy Spirit, on to us. Thus we are born again with new natures. If Christ actually did die for the sins of all men, then all are redeemed, all have His righteousness imputed to them, all are born again with new natures.<br></font color=green><br>This expresses the Calvinist view nicely. I agree with what you say about Adam, that we all are born with sinful natures but I would add that we all individually sin also as an act on our part. (Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.) <br><br>The last sentence about Christ as the second Adam, I would say He did die for the sins of all men and they are all redeemed and they all have the potential to have His righteousness imputed to them, if they but ask and receive. (Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.)<br><br>kyle:[color:green]<br>"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." If we are elect, we will bear the fruits of our election: We will repent, we will come to know the joy of Christ, we will grow in faith in Him, we will obey God out of love for Him. I have faith in my salvation because I have seen these fruits in me, even though my flesh wages war against me. But this faith is not my work, but the work of the Holy Spirit in me. I could not come to this faith on my own. The Armenian position says otherwise: That I can have faith on my own, apart from the work of the Spirit in me. How is this possible, if I am "dead in trespasses and sin"? If I have enough goodness in me to muster up faith, why not enough to muster up perfect obedience without Christ? In short, the fatal flaw of Arminianism is that it takes neither man's fallen nature nor the imputation of Adam's sin to us seriously enough. It expects that we have enough goodness to approach God, and also that we have power enough to resist God's will.<br></font color=green><br>The evidence of election, salvation and new birth is fruit. Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. So we agree on this point 100%. The question that follows is the big one. Have you never seen a person come to Christ with fruit of repentance, joy of salvation, growing in faith, obedient to God out of love for Him, exactly as you see in your self, and then fall away? Has it never happened?<br><br>This is a remarkable union of man with God that is accomplished through faith. (Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God) Faith on our part is nothing but an empty hand that reaches out until it is met by the grace of God.<br><br>Where I disagree with your statement is that you can not have faith when you are dead in trespasses and sins. Every descendant of Adam has faith. If you walk into a dark room and flip the switch on the wall it is an act of faith, you don’t know the light will come on but you believe it will. You pull the gear shift in your car to ‘R’ and look behind you because you have faith the car will go backwards. We have faith in each other in our relationships; child-parent, husband-wife, sometimes even brother-sister.<br><br>Faith in God is not different than the faith we use every day for all kinds of things. Our fallen nature has nothing to do with our ability to have faith any more than our personal IQ. There is nothing special or divine about faith (there is a spiritual gift of faith, I’m not talking about that). It’s when the faith of man reaches out to the gift of God that the miracle happens. <br><br>You ask, if I can have faith why not obedience without Christ? Faith is not works. Obedience is doing works and by works shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.)<br><br>Armenians do not expect that we have enough goodness to approach God. That is totally false and a gross misrepresentation. It would be against everything in the Bible to hold such a view. I suppose this comes out of your perception of faith.<br><br><br>Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. <br>Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. <br>Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. <br>Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. <br>Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? <br>Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! <br>Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? <br>Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. <br><br><br>Kyle:[color:green]<br>Then our salvation is dependent upon OUR WORK OF RESPONDING FAVORABLY TO THE GOSPEL. Responsibility for our salvation then rests with US, not with God. We may then boast in OUR OWN ABILITY to believe on the promises of God, rather than in God's mercy in Christ's dying for us while we were yet sinners.</font color=green><br><br>Our salvation is dependent on the work of Christ on the Cross. Receiving salvation is dependent on our FAITH. (Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.) Faith is not works. <br><br>Responsibility for our salvation rests with us. Some of it does, yes. (Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.)<br><br>[color:green]<br>If nothing we can do saves us, but only what God does, then the Calvinist view is the most compatible with Scripture.<br></font color=green><br>If that statement were true, you would not need scripture. That is the contradiction, but you apparently don’t see it, do you?<br>
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]The last sentence about Christ as the second Adam, I would say He did die for the sins of all men and they are all redeemed and they all have the potential to have His righteousness imputed to them, if they but ask and receive.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>If they are all REDEEMED (i.e., delivered from sin) they all have His righteousness imputed to them, by definition. So the only way you can maintain yourself on this point is to be universalist.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Have you never seen a person come to Christ with fruit of repentance, joy of salvation, growing in faith, obedient to God out of love for Him, exactly as you see in your self, and then fall away? Has it never happened?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>It's not something I can say that I have personally witnessed. However, only God knows the heart; there may well be some who appear to bear good fruit, but upon closer examination, their fruit had a rotten core.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Where I disagree with your statement is that you can not have faith when you are dead in trespasses and sins. Every descendant of Adam has faith. If you walk into a dark room and flip the switch on the wall it is an act of faith, you don’t know the light will come on but you believe it will. You pull the gear shift in your car to ‘R’ and look behind you because you have faith the car will go backwards. We have faith in each other in our relationships; child-parent, husband-wife, sometimes even brother-sister.<br><br>Faith in God is not different than the faith we use every day for all kinds of things. Our fallen nature has nothing to do with our ability to have faith any more than our personal IQ. There is nothing special or divine about faith (there is a spiritual gift of faith, I’m not talking about that). It’s when the faith of man reaches out to the gift of God that the miracle happens. <br><br>You ask, if I can have faith why not obedience without Christ? Faith is not works. Obedience is doing works and by works shall no flesh be justified. (Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.)</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Faith is actively trusting on the promises of God. We cannot trust in God while we are dead in trespasses and sin, because we are opposed to God and in rebellion against Him in all our ways. Rather, we trust in ourselves and men. In order for us to have faith, the Holy Spirit must first work in our hearts.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Armenians do not expect that we have enough goodness to approach God. That is totally false and a gross misrepresentation. It would be against everything in the Bible to hold such a view. I suppose this comes out of your perception of faith.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Arminians (it is with an I, not an E) believe that man is not so totally lost in sin that he cannot do any good of his own power, or that he cannot do the good of trusting in God on his own. So, yes, Arminians do believe that man has enough goodness in him that he can approach God of his own power, though certainly they do not say he can go all they way.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Our salvation is dependent on the work of Christ on the Cross. Receiving salvation is dependent on our FAITH.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>You still put it ultimately on man. If man refuses to receive salvation, he is not saved. If man chooses to receive salvation, he is saved. In either case, God's will is trumped so that the man's will can resist God's. If God wills that we should be saved, we will not be capable of resisting it to our own damnation.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Responsibility for our salvation rests with us.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>No, it does not. Our salvation is not conditional upon any merit in us.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]If nothing we can do saves us, but only what God does, then the Calvinist view is the most compatible with Scripture.<br><br>If that statement were true, you would not need scripture. That is the contradiction, but you apparently don’t see it, do you?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>There is no contradiction. Scripture is necessary as the means by which we hear the Gospel. You yourself quoted the following Scripture:<br><br><blockquote>So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17).</blockquote>
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] I think these verses are difficult for a Calvinist but for the Armenian the understanding seems to naturally flow from what the text says. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Hello Costello,<br><br>Just a quick comment here because I didn't see it pointed out previously. If indeed the Arminian interpretation is the true one for this passage, it would not only teach that one can fall away, but it would also teach that if one does fall away then he cannot be saved again ("it is impossible to renew them to repentance"). Is it your belief that if someone loses their salvation that they can never get it back again?<br><br>As to how I think we should interpret the text, the following is a quick summary I gave in another thread:<br><br>I think it is important to remember that Hebrews 6:4 and following are an explanation as to why the author has chosen not to go over the elementary principles again, but has decided to go on "to perfection." The reason for this is that his audience fully understands the basic Gospel promise. They have been Christians long enough that they ought to be teachers by this time, but they have been slack in growing in the understanding of God's Word. The writer knows that their behavior is a reflection of one of two possibilities then: 1) Either they have understood the Gospel and have consciously rejected it or 2) They are still immature in their thinking and need to grow in the understanding of God's Word. The remainder of the book weaves in warnings about the danger of being in the first category, but proceeds upon the optimisim that they are in the second. Hence, after explaining that there is nothing more to say to someone who has been fully acquainted with the Gospel and rejected it, he "moves on to perfection" in chapter 7 because "he is persuaded of better things concerning them". Which is to say, he thinks that they have simply been lazy in their spiritual growth and have therefore exhibited some behavior that looks like unbelief, therefore he will go on to instruct them in their faith being confident that it will take root and produce fruit.<br><br>Sincerely in Christ,<br><br>~Jason<br>
In reply to:[color:"blue"]This is a remarkable union of man with God that is accomplished through faith. (Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God) Faith on our part is nothing but an empty hand that reaches out until it is met by the grace of God.
I think that this interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9 is a misunderstanding or a wrong interpretation. I'll quote both of those verses now for the sake of the post and so I can be looking at them on the screen as I type.
[color:blue]For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephes. 2:8-9 (ESV)
What is it in this verse that is [color:blue]"not your own doing"? Is it the faith or the salvation? What is the emphasis in these verses? In my mind, I don't see the salvation being what is not my own but the faith and the grace needed to come to the salvation in the first place. Check out this verse:
[color:blue]For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. Romans 12:3 (ESV)
The faith that people have is assigned by God to people. So the faith is not our own in some sense. So when Paul says that Christians have been saved by grace through faith, and that it is not of us but the gift of God, I read that as saying that the faith and the grace are the gift of God. That removes all grounds for boasting because if the faith was mine in the first place, than I could say, "Look at me! I had faith in Jesus and I got saved!" But we can't be arrogant like that. We have to say, "Thank you Jesus for saving me." The emphasis is on Jesus' work and not my choice.
Honestly, if it had been up to me, I don't think I woulda chose God. I went to church and everything, yeah. But my parents' religion seemed, and still does at times, fake and shallow and it never had the answers I was looking for. Why in the world would someone follow something that won't, in their mind, answer their problems? Had it been up to me, I'd prolly still be out doing whatever and would prolly get drunk on the weekends, and have sex with a buncha different girls, and all that goes with the "typical" college life. Instead, I am a youth minister. I'm on the OTHER end of the spectrum there. Was that my choice or did God specifically choose me and call me out by an irresistible grace to call on Him with a faith that is not my own to the praise of His glorious grace which He freely bestowed on me in the Beloved?
Hi Jason, My belief is that for someone who is saved the possibility is there that they can lose that in one of two ways. One way, and the quickest, is to simply renounce Jesus Christ as Savior and proclaim Him an imposter. This would be committing the unpardonable sin and what John spoke of. <br>(1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. )<br><br>I would say that it is extremely rare for that to happen. One case might be Ananias and Sapphira. They trusted the god of mammon, more than the Word of the Lord and consequently lied about their gift. Since scripture does not record anything else about them we can not know if they were saved or not or how they came to be a part of this company. Another case is Simon the sorcerer. He appears to have effectively been saved, (Acts 8:13) but when he attempted apostasy by offering Peter money was told “Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.” (v21) <br><br><br>The other way, which is the slow way, is for a person to just drift away from his walk and relationship with the Lord and His people, eventually returning to their old ways and habits. What happens to this person is not for the Church to decide apart from someone getting a specific word of the Lord as how to deal with them. We are to be always seeking to restore such a one, and as long as there is some action and repentance on their part, they can be restored. (Mat 18:22; Isa 42:3)<br><br>An example here would be Samson. God withdrew His spirit for a time and let Satan have his way with him until his last day when God granted his petition and restored His Spirit. <br><br>But there is a point where this behavior becomes irrevocable. This is the danger which every backslider needlessly exposes them self to. The flask no longer has even the unpleasant smoke and the reed is bruised to the point of breaking. I do not have an example that comes to mind but a scripture.<br><br>Deu 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: <br>Deu 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; <br>Deu 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. <br>Deu 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.<br><br>It is not only the son’s behavior, but he does not hearken to the voice of his mother or father. He is deliberately cut off from life and excluded from his inheritance. God allowed this to earthly parents and I believe the backslider who dies in an unrepentant state has experienced the same fate.<br>
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Arminians (it is with an I, not an E)</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Ahh, my spell checker takes it both ways, now I know why. Thanks.<br><br>I applogize to those I have not reponded to in a timely manor. I am doing the best I can, but my wife is telling me I have to other stuff. BBBoooooorrrriiiiiinnnggg.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]If they are all REDEEMED (i.e., delivered from sin) they all have His righteousness imputed to them, by definition.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Here is point of major confusion then. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"] Thayer Definition:<br>1) to redeem<br>1a) by payment of a price to recover from the power of another, to ransom, buy off<br>1b) metaphorically of Christ freeing the elect from the dominion of the Mosaic Law at the price of his vicarious death<br>2) to buy up, to buy up for one’s self, for one’s use<br>2a) to make wise and sacred use of every opportunity for doing good, so that zeal and well doing are as it were the purchase money by which we make the time our own</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>It is a payment of price with the intention to recover something. It is to buy up for ones own use. There is nothing in that definition that includes imputed righteousness. Every sinner is redeemed but only those who receive it, will benefit from it in the sense of salvation, but redeeming the sinner was also necessary for God to be able to punish them.<br><br>It is like a number of prisoners having an outstanding debt at the bank you can’t pay. Someone else makes a huge deposit and says “just call the bank and ask them to transfer my money to your account, I told them to do it for any one who calls.” You have to make the call to clear the debt and be freed from prison, if you don't make the call, you serve the term and then are deliverd to the redeemer anyway because he had bought you.<br><br><br>
I have been sort of loosely following this thread, and I am sure many others have brought this up to you, but why is it that you believe these individuals were Christians to begin with? I have encountered similar individuals who come to church, hang out for a while, then after a period time drift away; but I have never concluded that they were saved and then walked away from their salvation. How can someone undo the regenerating work of God in their heart? Can a man take his spiritual heart of flesh and replace it with a heart of stone? That is just silly thinking in my mind. <br>Much of your dilemma is founded upon an erroneous view of the will. I would imagine that you believe in freewill (perhaps someone has addressed this already), but that is a philosophical belief, not one grounded in scripture. I asked other Arminians if they believe such an occurance could happen in heaven; that men could walk away from their salvation in heaven. In you thinking could a believer walk away from God in heaven once they are there? Why or why not? Would that not imply God violates their "freewill" inorder to keep them there in his presence?<br><br>Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
[color:red]Joh 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? <br>Joh 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. <br>Joh 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. <br>Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. <br>Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? <br>Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. <br></font color=red><br><br>From Gill’s commentary:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>Joh 9:41 - Jesus said unto them, if ye were blind,.... And sensible of it, and knew yourselves to be blind, and were desirous of light and knowledge, <br><br>ye would have no sin: or your sin would not be so aggravated; it would not be imputed to you; it would be pardoned and taken away from you: for the sense cannot be, that their blindness would not have been criminal, or they should have no sin in them, or any done by them; only, that had this been barely their case, there would have been some hope of them, that their sin might be forgiven, and put away, and be no more; see 1Ti_1:13; <br><br>but now ye say we see; they thought themselves to be wise and knowing, and stood in no need of any illumination from him, but were obstinate and hardened in their infidelity, and wilfully opposed and shut their eyes against all the light and evidence of truth: <br><br>therefore your sin remaineth; untaken away, yea, immoveable, or unpardonable; the guilt of it abode upon them; nor was there any hope of its being removed from them; owning that they saw, and yet believed not: sinning wilfully against light and knowledge in rejecting Jesus, as the Messiah, they sinned the sin against the Holy Ghost, which is never forgiven. And so the Ethiopic version renders it, "your error shall not be forgiven you"; see Mat_12:32.<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br>That is the answer to Owen. Pardon is available to all, but all do not receive so their sin remains. Their error could be forgiven, but it is not. Unlike Paul, who admitted he acted ignorantly, they said they see.<br>
In reply to:[color:"blue"]That is the answer to Owen. Pardon is available to all, but[color:red] all do not receive so their sin remains. Their error could be forgiven, but it is not. Unlike Paul, who admitted he acted ignorantly, they said they see.
Paul was struck down on the Damascus road [color:red]before he willingly admitted anything about true Christianity. God always acts first and changes the man so he may come, so he may ask, so he may be “fully” changed. The order of salvation is Election, Calling, Regeneration and then all else follows after God’s design.
You are saying that Christ died for EVERY man ([color:red]without exception) and for EVERY sin ([color:red]without exception). Thus, even if, [color:red]all do not receive His sacrifice (which is sin) it is still forgiven, according to you, and thus you are embracing universalism!
When quoting individuals as John Gill it is necessary to get the whole context and understand the full meaning of his terms. Just before what you pasted is this:
That they which see not, might see; meaning, not so much corporeally as spiritually, since in the opposite clause corporeal blindness can have no place; for though Christ restored bodily sight to many, he never took it away from any person. The sense is, that [color:red]Christ came as a light into the world, that those who are in the darkness of sin, ignorance, and unbelief, and who are sensible of the same, and desire spiritual illuminations, as this man did, might see what they are by nature, what need they stand in of him, and what fulness of grace, life, righteousness, and salvation, there is in him for them. And that they which see might be made blind; that such who are wise and knowing in their own conceit, who fancy themselves to have great light and knowledge, to have the key of knowledge, and to have the true understanding of divine things, and to be guides of the blind, such as the Scribes and Pharisees, might be given up to judicial blindness and hardness of heart, so as to shut their eyes, and harden their hearts against the Gospel, and the truths of it, and which was in judgment to them: [color:red]such different effects Christ and his Gospel have, as to illuminate and soften some, and blind and harden others; just as some creatures, as bats and owls, are blinded by the sun, whilst others see clearly by the light of it; and as that also has these different effects to soften the wax, and harden the clay; (see Isaiah 6:9).
And who makes a dead man sensible of his depravity—the Holy Spirit! Who makes one aware of the grace of Christ—the Holy Spirit. Gill also comments prior to this giving us some more understanding of his theology:
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me, etc. [color:red]The “all” design not the apostles only, who were given to Christ as such; for these did not all, in a spiritual manner, come to him, and believe in him; one of them was a devil, and the son of perdition; much less every individual of mankind: these are, in some sense, given to Christ to subserve some ends of his mediatorial kingdom, and are subject to his power and control, but do not come to him, and believe in him: but the whole body of the elect are here meant who, when they were chosen by God the Father, were given and put into the hands of Christ, as his seed, his spouse, his sheep, his portion, and inheritance, and to be saved by him with an everlasting salvation,; which is an instance of love and care on the Father’s part, to give them to Christ; and of grace and condescension in him to receive them, and take the care of them; and of distinguishing goodness to them: and though Christ here expresses this act of his Father’s in the present tense, “giveth”, perhaps to signify the continuance and unchangeableness of it; yet he delivers it in the past tense, in (John 6:39), “hath given”; and so all the Oriental versions render it here. And it certainly respects an act of God, antecedent to coming to Christ, and believing in him, which is a fruit and effect of electing love, as is clear from what follows:
shall come unto me; [color:red]such who are given to Christ in eternal election, and in the everlasting covenant of grace, shall, and do, in time, come to Christ, and believe in him to the saving of their souls; which is not to be ascribed to, any power and will in them, but to the power and grace of God. [color:red]It is not here said, that such who are given to Christ have a “power” to come to him, or “may” come if they will, but they shall come; efficacious grace will bring them to Christ, as poor perishing sinners, to venture on him for life and salvation…..
and here:
No man can come to me, etc. That is, by faith, (as in John 6:35); for otherwise they could corporeally come to him, but not spiritually; [color:red]because they had neither power nor will of themselves; being dead in trespasses and sins, and impotent to everything that is spiritual: and whilst men are in a state of unregeneracy, blindness, and darkness, they see no need of coming to Christ, nor anything in him worth coming for; they are prejudiced against him, and their hearts are set on other things; and besides, coming to Christ and believing in Christ being the same thing, it is certain faith is not of a man’s self, it is the gift of God, and the operation of his Spirit; and therefore efficacious grace must be exerted to enable a soul to come to Christ; which is expressed in the following words, except the Father which hath sent me, draw him: which is not to be understood of moral persuasion, or a being persuaded and prevailed upon to come to Christ by the consideration of the mighty works which God had done to justify that he was the true Messiah, but of the internal and powerful influence of the grace of God; for this act of drawing is something distinct from, and superior to, both doctrine and miracles. ……
John 6:65 that no man can come to me, except it be given him of my Father; which is the same, as to be drawn by the Father; for faith in Christ is the gift of God, [color:red]and coming to him, is owing to efficacious grace, and is not the produce of man’s power and freewill
Thus, far from Gill agreeing with you he indicts your error.
Like Fred, I have been looking in on this thread loosely from time to time and I would have to agree with Fred in that your thinking about what salvation really is lacks depth. The only reasonable explanation for the situations you sight is not that they were saved, but that they thought they were, which is presumption.
I would add to Freds points the following. Just as it was rediculous for Nicodemus to ask the question "how can a man enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born (physically) again?", it is rediculous to suppose you can be unborn (spiritually) again. Once the Holy Spirit gives spiritual life to the soul it doesn't die again, because that life, and the sustenance of it, is based on God's will and power and satisfaction of sin. If you read the scripture you will also see that that person doesn't drift off and commit sin as you say for John tells us in his first epistle that that new life prevents the continual habitual, practice of sin:
"1Jn3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
John is emphatic here, so that while a believer may backslide for a while he can't go on this way, he will be chastised, as per legitimate sons in Hebrews and repent, not just drift in and out. Your problem is that you are not exegeting according to the analogy of the faith, that is putting all the applicable scriptures TOGETHER TO COME UP WITH YOUR DOCTRINE. This piecemeal eisegesis will always lead to the error you exhibit. Not even discussed here is the issue of an internal struggle with sin in the true believer as Paul speaks of in Rom 7. Any time someone tells me that Romans 7 is about a preconversion experience of Paul, I must say that I doubt the reality of their conversion. One of the primary marks of the new birth is a growing awarness of one's sinfulness and an hatred for it, and that hatred is based on the "flesh lusting against the spirit and the spirit lusting against the flesh". This is spiritual warfare and those who know nothing of this are most likely either very young in the faith or not yet converted. A tender conscience in the 'fear of God" is one of many key signs of the new birth, new spiritual life in the soul.
Can a man be unborn again? I don't think so, so may I suggest that you rethink those scriptures, especially since if you dig deep enough they will lead you to reconsider the sin of Presumption which Ps 19 calls "the great transgression".
