The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Original Sin, Total Depravity and the Roman Church

<center> [color:red]This post was moved from:</font color=red> Point of Salvation? - Pilgrim</center><br><br>Do you believe in Original Sin Hannah?<br><br>A gift is a gift precisely because you do not choose it. Otherwise it would cease to be a gift.

Yes I believe in original sin. But we were still made in the Image of God, which is why Catholics reject "total depravity"

So are you saying that you deny the corruption of the Image Deo caused by sin? That some how being created in God's image kept us from total depravity? To what extent then is man corrupted by sin?

Yes, being made in God's image kept us from total depravity. The wages of sin is death, meaning we need a Savior, Jesus. But we'd say man is by nature not "a pile of dung" as Luther said but a "man made in the image of God!" meaning we retain some of his Image even though we are sinners. That's where the longing to be made whole, to be forgiven, to love God comes in.<br>-hANNAH

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]"a pile of dung" as Luther said</font><hr></blockquote><p> If you don't mind when you are quoting Luther or the other Reformation writers I would appreciate it if you would use references. <br><br>As to man's supposed longing to be made whole, forgiven, and to love God have you never read:<br><br>The wicked go astray from the womb. They are wayward as soon as they are born, speaking lies. (Ps 58:3)<br><br>Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity. In sin my mother conceived me. (Ps 51:5)<br><br>You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (Eph 2:1-3)<br><br>For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by his life. (Ro 5:10)<br><br>Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1Co 2:14)<br><br>because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God's law, neither indeed can it be. (Ro 8:7)<br>(emphasis mine)<br><br>Please Hannah show me again where it says that unregenerate people desire to be made whole, to be forgiven, or to love God?<br>

Hannah,

In reply to:

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[color:"blue"]being made in God's image kept us from total depravity

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On the contrary, being made in God's image compounds our depravity to an infinite degree! The imago Dei has not been eradicated--as you seem to think we believe--but rather, it remains recognizable, but is corrupted, defiled, spoiled, ruined, perverted, that is: TOTALLY DEPRAVED. An old dish towel used when changing the oil of one's car causes no chagrin; but if a pure wedding gown is used for the same purpose, precisely because we can esteem its original purpose and worth, we groan that it has been TOTALLY RUINED. The analogy fails, of course, at the point of volition, which again increases our condemnation. Adam consciously, willingly, whole-heartedly rebelled, and all who know the Truth know that they would have done the same, and continue to do the same.

Hannah, you continue to demonstrate your rebellion against the Word of God by attempting to teach people that unbelievers are disposed to love God. The Scripture uses far more potent language than even Luther to describe the human heart, and it is opposed to your own fanciful, idolatrous thoughts:

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The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. (Genesis 6:5)

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way... (Isaiah 53:6)

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! (Job 14:4)

They are .. God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful... (Romans 1:30)

...Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
All have turned away, they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good, not even one." (Romans 3:9-12)

The mind of the sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled the sinful nature cannot please God. (Roman 8:6-8)

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. (Titus 3:3)

In other words you reject the need of the Holy Spirit and promote our inate ability to serve God despite our sinful nature.

Hannah,<br><br> Just one question here: Have you ever read the whole Bible? All this Biblical support the people here are giving you, have you ever heard or read them before? Coming from an R.C. background, I know that all you hear in church is the Gospels, but have you honestly read the Bible? If not, then it's really time you did, if you have, where is your Biblical support for your beliefs?<br><br>In His Hands,<br><br>Ruth

Dear Hannah,<br><br>what <span style="background-color:yellow;">scriptures</span> do you use for your defense? I find it telling that you rarely, if at all, use scriptures in your arguments. In those rare moments, you are merely giving the standard RCC eisogesis. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/sad.gif" alt="sad" title="sad[/img] Please do consider all the scriptures and exegesis that many on this board are patiently providing for you. RCC doctrines and Protestant doctrines of salvation are mutually exclusive. Eternity is at stake. I pray would listen to the apostle Paul, if you will not listen to us.<br><blockquote><br>1And [color:red]you</font color=red> were <span style="background-color:yellow;">dead in the trespasses and sins</span> 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. <span style="background-color:yellow;">But[2] God</span>, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8[color:red]For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them</font color=red>.(Eph 2:1-10)</blockquote><br><br><br>in Christ,<br>Carlos

Why do you think we only hear the Gospels? we have three readings per Sunday, one of which is always a gospel, but the other two are not<br>-In Christ, Hannah

what? we need the Holy Spirit! Catholics believe that being made in image keeps us from total depravity but that in no way means that we don't need a Savior or the Holy Spirit. <br><br>-Hannah

HWMinngrl,<br><br> That's great to hear, when I went, the Gospel's were the ONLY readings. What else do they read? And you didn't answer my question, Have you ever read the whole Bible?<br><br>In His Hands,<br><br>Ruth

HWMinngr,<br><br>So, please tell us ALL the GOOD that remains in man in-spite of the fall into damnable sin. Please be specific. Please use the Scriptures.