The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Was Ham elect?

Joe k,


I'm going to, hermeneutics or no hermeneutics, agree with you. (unless someone knocks it out of me) There is just too much there. I do know for sure that "spiritualization" and allegory of the Scripture has caused much heresy and grief among Christians.

Our Pastor awhile ago gave us a sermon in Genesis about Joseph. He said that Christian scholars had found over 300 different parallels between the life of Joseph and the advent of our Christ. These parallels (or types) are touched but hardly completely so in the New Testament.

I won't mention the thread but this idea of the wealth and richness in the O. T. types has got me into a lot of trouble in the past here on the highway, and I was still only half convinced. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

BTW, I still do not agree with you that Ham was Elect as that is a different matter altogether.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Denny,

The issue is, Are these alleged "similarities" those which Scripture itself makes or are they something which one's imagination makes? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> Again, the problem historically has been the over-active imagination of men "seeing things" which simply are not there and from them arrive at fanciful "types", etc. One would have to admit that "similarities" can be forced to support a preconceived idea, e.g., those promoted by the "name it and claim it" and "health and wealth" groups.

Re: misuse of allegory, I would give you but a couple of examples of men who are infamous for radical misinterpretation of Scripture: 1) Marcion and 2) Origen. Oh, and how about a "popular" one that popped up within our own day and fairly recently, "The Prayer of Jabez" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />.

In His grace,

Pilgrim,


I very much agree that this happens and is often dangerously true, but....


May one infer by this that there may be a proper use of allegory rather than a misuse? Or, is allegory always to be passed off as Scripturally immature imagination? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Absolutely! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> Scripture itself uses allegory . . . but again it is inherent in the text itself and should not be imposed upon a text. Some examples of allegory can be found in the Lord Christ's description of Himself, e.g., "I am the door . . .", "I am the true vine . . .", etc.

Perhaps one of the more infamous impositions of allegory upon a text is found here:

One of the more fanciful interpretations of this text says that the axe head represents the Church, which although may appear to have perished eventually rises to the top and reigns on the earth.

I'm sure one could try and justify such an interpretation by pointing out certain "similarities" between the axe head and the Church as well as other items in this account. But there is no "similarities" to be found anywhere in Scripture that equates this or any other axe head with the Church. "Scripture interprets Scripture". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Pilgrim,

I am still more than just a bit confused. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> I don't think anyone has a problem with explicit allegory such as "I am the door" or "I am the true vine". But what about implicit allegory such as found in Malachi 4:2:

"But for you who fear my name the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings: and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall."

This from Calvins commentary:

"The meaning then of the word sun, when metaphorically applied to Christ, is this, -- that he is called a sun, because without him we cannot but wander and go astray, but that by his guidance we shall keep in the right way; and hence he says,
"He who follows me walks not in darkness." (John 8:12.)
But we must observe that this is not to be confined to the person of Christ, but extended to the gospel. Hence Paul says,
"Awake thou who sleepest, and rise from darkness,
and Christ shall illuminate thee." (Ephesians 5:14)"

Calvin goes on to say that there is no doubt that this O.T. verse refers to the risen Christ.

Denny

Romans 3:22

Denny,

Sorry you are still confused.

The example you gave from Mal 4:2 is what I would consider "clear" and Calvin's comments accurate re: a "metaphor" because of the CONTEXT.... i.e., again, the Scripture is self-interpretive. How? because the "sun of righteousness" is said to be "Elijah" and from the N.T. we know that this coming Elijah spoken of in Malachi is the Lord Christ. One doesn't have to impose their own allegorical/metaphorical ideas upon the phrase "sun of righteousness" by gathering up alleged "similarities" to conclude this is true. All one needs to do is see the Scripture's own inspired words and reference to come to the true understanding of the text.

Coming full circle.... as I tried to explain to Joe, there is not ONE SINGLE reference or allusion to be found anywhere in the Bible re: Noah's Ark being a "type of Christ". I even provided the passage where Noah's Ark is referenced (cf. 1Pet 3:20, 21), but it is the water that is called a "likeness" and not the Ark and that likeness is in regard to baptism and not Christ.

If in this matter I am going to err, I would much prefer to err on the side of caution rather than on the side of imposing, injecting and/or misinterpreting God's Word due to an over-active zeal to find Christ, or whatever it might be in alleged "similarities". It might result in some preacher's notoriety as his audience/readers sit in awe at his marvelous "insights" into Scripture, but it doesn't mean his conclusions are correct. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Pilgrim,

Thanks for the confused and floor pacing Graemlin:


I'm going to go <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sleep.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sleeping.gif" alt="" /> tonight and <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> about this as there is much more to it than I have always <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />.

The ideas of allegory, metaphore and simile probably deserve their own thread anyway. Do you have any suggested reading?

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

As a start, I would recommend the following (disclaimer: I do not endorse everything written in these books. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

1) Principles of Biblical Interpretation, by Louis Berkhof, Baker. [color:"red"]Highly Recommended![/color]
2) Interpreting the Bible, by A. Berkeley Mickelsen, Eerdmans
3) Biblical Hermeneutics, by Milton S. Terry, Zondervan
4) Typology of Scripture, by Patrick Fairbairn, Kregel (available here: Monergism.com)

In His grace,