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#20162
Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274
Head Honcho
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Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274 |
OrthodoxCatholic said: As regards the article mentioned, where can any soul go that God is not there? Is there a place in all of the universe which is without God's presence? I would have to say no. I lean to the idea that Christ redeemed all mankind unto God, just as Adam separated all mankind from God. But for those who are brought to God who hate Him, that warm fire of His love will be sheer torment to them. Hello again! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Unfortunately, as was the case with what you wrote in a previous thread re: covenant headship, I am likewise confused as to what you hold in regard to the nature and efficacy of the atonement. When you say that " Christ redeemed all mankind unto God", what exactly is your understanding of "redeemed"? For if Christ actually paid the ransom (Grk: lutron; cf. Matt 20:28; Mk 10:45; 1Tim 2:6), thus being the Redeemer (Grk: lutroo; cf. Gal 3:13; 1Pet 1:18; cp. Heb: goel in the book of Ruth), then must not the one who held those redeemed captive must legally set them free? This is simply a matter of justice and ethics. Since it was to God that the ransom was paid and He being perfectly just (Gen 18:25), then He would be obligated to no longer hold captive those who were in bondage. The inescapable conclusion is that for whoever the ransom was paid, they are free. And if the ransom was paid for all mankind without discrimination, then ALL are thus free and are not liable to judgment for non-payment of th ransom they owed. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> You also wrote: I am not denying that there will be eternal torment for God haters in the afterlife. But I do question the manner in which that torment is administered. The Calvinist paradigm makes God appear a monster Who arbitrarily torments men without any reason at all. I never could accept that God sends "non elect" infants to hell based on nothing but His will to do so. I'm afraid that your conception of the Calvinist doctrine of eternal punishment is inaccurate, at least that which is held by the Infralapsarians within the camp. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> For, what we hold is that all men are condemned upon the basis that they are sinners; having received the "curse" of Adam's transgression, their covenant head, i.e., the guilt judgment incurred by Adam; a corruption of nature which is inherited by them and guilt which is imputed to them. Thus God is perfectly just in condemning all men to eternal torment, they being doubly guilty. As to the condemnation of "non-elect infants", they being members of the human race whose head is the same Adam of that of adults, inherit a corruption of nature from which sin is its fruit and likewise guilt is imputed to their account, they are not exempt from God's wrath nor His perfect justice. (cf. Rom 3:10-18; 9:11ff; Eph 2:1-3; et al) That some infants are elect it cannot be doubted. But I think you would be hard-pressed to show from Scripture that ALL infants are "elect". To hold to such a view would prove too much, for most infants mature into adulthood and thus this would terminate in Universalism, which you have also said you reject, i.e., you do hold that there will be a Judgment by which some will be found guilty and cast into eternal damnation. In His Grace,
simul iustus et peccator
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Some meat for the dogs . . .
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:55 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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Pilgrim
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Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:55 PM
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:55 PM
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gotribe
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Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:14 PM
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:00 PM
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Anonymous
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Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:39 AM
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Pilgrim
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Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:52 AM
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Anonymous
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Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:20 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:51 AM
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Anonymous
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Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:46 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:41 AM
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:56 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:06 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:41 PM
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gotribe
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Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:46 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:47 PM
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gotribe
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Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:56 PM
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:36 AM
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gotribe
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:10 AM
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Pilgrim
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:14 AM
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:18 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:15 AM
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Anonymous
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Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:37 PM
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You are confused.... .
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Anonymous
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Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:54 AM
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Anonymous
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Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:58 AM
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Anonymous
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Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:08 AM
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Anonymous
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Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:27 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:09 AM
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Anonymous
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Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:05 AM
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Anonymous
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Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:25 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Jan 03, 2005 5:32 AM
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Anonymous
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Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:17 PM
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Anonymous
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Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:45 PM
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Anonymous
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Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:47 PM
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CovenantInBlood
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Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:13 PM
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:15 AM
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:44 AM
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Pilgrim
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:14 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:26 PM
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:06 AM
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gotribe
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Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:08 AM
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:45 PM
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:36 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:49 AM
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Pilgrim
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Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:53 PM
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Anonymous
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Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:28 AM
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Pilgrim
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Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:31 AM
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:49 PM
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Anonymous
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Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:27 PM
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Pilgrim
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:20 AM
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Anonymous
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:32 AM
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Pilgrim
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Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:35 PM
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Anonymous
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Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:50 AM
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Pilgrim
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Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:50 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:08 AM
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Anonymous
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Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:30 AM
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Anonymous
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Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:43 AM
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Anonymous
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Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:50 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:57 AM
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Adopted
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:50 PM
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Anonymous
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:00 PM
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Adopted
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:01 PM
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Anonymous
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:10 PM
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MarieP
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:10 PM
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CovenantInBlood
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:45 PM
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Anonymous
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:51 AM
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:52 AM
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Anonymous
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:25 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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gotribe
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:44 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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Anonymous
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:19 PM
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Adopted
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:07 PM
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gotribe
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:10 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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Anonymous
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:37 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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MarieP
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:42 PM
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Adopted
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:16 PM
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Peter
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Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 PM
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Anonymous
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Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:41 PM
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Anonymous
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Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:03 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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Adopted
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Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:47 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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CovenantInBlood
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:32 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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Adopted
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:30 AM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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Peter
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Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:09 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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Adopted
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Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:15 PM
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MarieP
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:31 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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CovenantInBlood
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:37 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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MarieP
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:28 PM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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Adopted
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:52 PM
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CovenantInBlood
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Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:41 AM
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Anonymous
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Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:57 AM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:41 AM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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CovenantInBlood
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Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:03 AM
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Re: Some meat for the dogs . . .
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Adopted
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Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:46 AM
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