Secondly, this "baptism of desire" is totally contrary to scriptural teaching. (cf. Gen 6:5;
Well, let's look at these verses a bit:
[color:"0000FF"][b]Genesis 6:5-10 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.[/color]
We seem to have a contradiction here. On the one hand, you point to the verses which state that mankind had only evil thoughts continually, and that is what they seem to say on the face of it, but then we see that Noah was a just man who walked with God. This seems to be a weak text to insist upon Total Depravity, seeing that Noah did not partake of the evil of that generation.
8:21;
[color:"0000FF"]Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.[/color]
Again, I must ask if God judges man as being wicked because of the imagination of his heart, or because of what he actually does regarding those temptations. The flesh is certainly opposed to God, and redemption is that work of Chrsit which puts to death our flesh and creates us a new creature. But if we sin, even after salvation, are we not then counted as sinners since we have done evil? Scripture seems to think so:
[color:"0000FF"]Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.[/color]
A righteous man TURNS FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. And how does he do this? By mere thoughts, which are nothing more than the disordered passions of the flesh, or by actually commiting sin?
Isa 9:13;
Not a proof text for total depravity. It is talking about the Lord's judgment against the nation which had turned its back on the Lord.
53:1;
[color:"0000FF"]Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?[/color]
This hardly qualfies for a proof text for total depravity.
64:6;
[color:"0000FF"]Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.[/color]
The lament of the prophet over the condition of his nation is not the same as God declaring that all mankind is totally depraved. I do believe that you are reading into the text here.
Jh 3:19;
[color:"0000FF"]John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/color]
Again, reading into the text. It does not say that ALL MEN loved darkness rather than light. We have, in fact, a rather sure word from the Lord that this is not the case at all. We see that the Wise Men came seeking the One Who is the Light of the World. We see righteous Zacharias and Elizabeth (Luke 1: 5-6). And, of course, there was the Blessed Virgin Mary. Scripture records for us the actions of both sinners and saints. We cannot simply state that all men are totally depraved because of the sins of the many. I would state that it is indeed lamentably easy to sin, even as a believer. But that can just as easily prove that we are damaged in our wills and, like St. Paul said in Romans 7, unable to always do that which we know we should do.
Rom 3:11;
[color:"0000FF"]Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.[/color]
This is a proof text for the very thing I have been saying here. This verse is taken out of context -- and I mean COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT -- from the Psalm that St. Paul is quoting. Please go to Psalm 14 and read the first three verses. This is what St. Paul is quoting and if you study what is being said here, the SUBJECTS of this verse [color:"FF0000"]are the wicked as contrasted to the righteous[/color] It is the wicked the Psalmist is speaking of when he charges that there is none that seeketh God. That same Psalm goes on to say that God is in the generation of the righteous.
8:7, 8;
[color:"0000FF"]Romans 8:7-10 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/color]
This is a much stronger proof text, at least on the surface, to prove your point. My only question would be this: what does St. Paul mean by the carnal mind? Is that the mind of all mankind without God? Or is the carnal mind one of two minds one can have in regards to God -- i.e., the carnal mind and then the spiritual mind? I see St. Paul saying here that those in Christ are not in the carnal mind, right? But then, how is it that we sin? I think this is the struggle of all Christians -- to both appropriate and live out that which is reality in the spiritual realm, i.e, that the flesh no longer has control over us.
1Cor 2:14;
[color:"0000FF"]1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/color]
Another very strong verse for your point. You show me that I need to do some further study on these points to see why it is that the Early Fathers did not come up with a Calvinistic framework such as the Reformers did. In other words, what is their understanding of these verses?
Eph 2:2, 3
[color:"0000FF"]Ephesians 2:2-3 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/color]
Again, very good point from scripture. I am sure that somewhere there is an answer to this. I just need to find it. Remember, anyone can make the scriptures say just about anything they wish to. That is the foundation of all the numerous denominations which we see.
Thank you for provoking me to both thought and study.
