Joe, you know, I really couldn't decide if I wanted to respond to you or to Pilgrim to maybe Kyle (CovenantInBlood) who seems to have been a bit rude to my friend Kalled, but you won out cause you had some really good verse references and because you have shown me in other threads that you do give thought to what's being said and I think you treat the younger men as brothers instead of lording it over as some are apt to do.

I'm actually going to skip the Leonard Sweet comments because I don't know him and I haven't read his stuff. I have read the article I've linked to with my original post (of which I'm sure everyone on this thread has read and carefully considered) and a few things by McLaren and a blurb or two from a few others, as I said, I haven't looked at all this as in depth as I'm sure each and every one of you have.

So, you said something about Isaiah 5 and specifically verse 20. This is a good passage to keep in mind, for all of us. I really like verse 13 but that's 2 paragraphs before and I don't think it needs expounding here. Someone of less tact might suggest that in warning and saying woe to a bro, someone might wish to remember the following verse, Isaiah 5:21 "Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight!"(ESV). Someone might say that. Of coarse, someone of lesser tact would say something about the next verse and stereotypical Presbyterians, but hopefully we don't have anyone on this board who is so crass as to make comments about an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. Certainly, I would not ever want to be such a person.


Statements such as these reveal your immaturity in Christ and your lack of knowledge of the very enemies of the Church. This is one of the reasons young Christians are to submit themselves to older mature Christians, so they will not fall prey to such heresy! (1 Peter 5:5). The ECM is as Pilgrim stated, “deliberate, calculated and well planned.” Satan is not stupid!


It is interesting that you should say this. I seem to recall something about judging not lest I be judged but you are older and you desire the position of or claim the position of overseer so I trust that as an older brother to a younger brother you're not trying to quarrel and I trust that you aren't writing with a craving for controversy and quarrels about words (I Timothy 3 & 6). Because I am sure that you and these other older brothers are not out at all for controversy or for quarrels or any of that, I'd have to agree, the devil isn't stupid, he's just stubborn. He's obviously been smart enough to make sure you and Pilgrim and Kalled and I don't get our hands on any of those hell sent memo's to emergent leaders. I mean, if you had articles showing the clear connection between all of these emergent leaders and the devil I'm certain you would go to great lengths to publish them to discredit these "false and heretical teachers". I simply hope that you elders are submitting to the eldest so that we are not the blind (or the sighted) being lead by the blind.

Now, I really ought to respond to the man Pilgrim. I admit, he's far more learned than I, he's written articles and spent countless hours sitting in front of the computer telling people via cyber space about the doctrines of grace (which is the gospel in its entirety, we know this because Spurgeon said so). We all know how important it is that all of cyber-space hear the good news, especially in these dark days when young whipper snappers are using these infernal machines to spread the venom and bite of heretical teaching to countless people who are not at all seeking for it or for truth. I really wish though that Pilgrim had commented on Jude over in the End of the Spear thread cause that might have been slightly more appropriate. Pilgrim instead chose to express the spirit of Jude to use here using verse three. I know that Pilgrim is always ready to write about our common salvation but like Jude he must continually remind us to contend (which I guess is different than quarreling) with people who pervert the gospel. Pilgrim no doubt wishes to remind us that it is God who judges and that like the archangel Michael we ought not to presume to pronounce blasphemous judgment. Pilgrim has so eloquintly layed out how Emergents are "grumblers, malcontents, followers of their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favortism to gain advantage."

Beloved, if you think there might be a bit of sarcasm in the above statements, you might, might, be correct. What do I see when I contrast the emergents I've read and met and the calvinist I've read and met? There are plenty of people calling themselves Christians who give Christianity a bad name. There are plenty of people professing the doctrines of grace and ignorant of the simplest application of them. There are likewise numerous people claiming to be emergent who do not represent the entire movement. That is one thing that must be acknowledge and I would hope is admired. These people don't claim to be bound by any other member of the movement and it gives them incredible flexibility which is lacking in certain groups. The emergents I have seen have not loved simply in word but also in deed. They do not claim infallibility or the equality of tradition with scripture and they do not get into meaningless quarrels about nonessential doctrines but they work together to discover what they believe and hope to be true.

What is it that draws so many people to emergent? The Post-Modernism? I don't think so, it's as hard as the movement is to define. The music? I again, don't think so, they seem to use the same songs youth use in countless "low church" services around the nation. What does draw people and what the average joe on the street is looking for is a faith that shows itself out in actions as our dear brother and epistle writing James once put forth, "Faith apart from works is dead." The thing we can say about emergent is that their faith is not dead, can that always be said of us (You and me, us)? We have a sacred responsibility to love God and obey His commandments. The greatest commandment is to Love the Lord your God (and notice this), that Jesus answering the question of what is the single greatest commandment gives what appears to be two! But no, it's not Jesus volunteering extra information but it's that we can't separate the two and yet the church has! IF we love God we will obey His commandments, we will NOT hate, we will NOT envy, we will NOT lust, we will NOT covet, etc. What we will do is demonstrate the love of God which has been shown to us. How can we who have received grace not also show grace?

You know that I love good preaching and I love good doctrinal reading and quotes from great Christians of the past, but what good has simply stating an argument or using complex thoughts done for us? Has preserving the church in a timeless bubble from the first century or from the 16th really won us the world? No, few people are won over to the gospel simply because of a mental component of being unable to argue past it. People are won when they see the benefit and the change of the gospel in the lives of those who have already received that free gift of grace. IF we seek Him and if those who are perishing are to seek Him, it must first be believed that He rewards those who seek Him diligently. So many of us are stoic and uptight and unwilling to sully our hands with dirty sinners and with the poor and the pathetic and the "lost causes", we've forgotten that Christ Jesus came to seek and to save that which is lost. He was active in pursuing the lost, but we so often times are not.

Are we called to meet people's emotional or physical needs only or as the primary needs? No, I agree, we all agree, the first need we all have is God, but sometimes it is more convincing and is a great tool to help people out with something that's troubling them or something that's holding them back. Irresistable grace doesn't always work in one day. Certainly getting someone a meal or something to warm them up seems a friendly and compassion filled thing to do and I think it just might fool people into thinking that our love is as Paul said it should be, genuine, and that it might fool people into thinking we're actually there for them instead of some petty competetition between Christians for who can get the biggest numbers on sunday morning. Frankly, I can only assume that we've generally as a Christian community collectively bought into the lies around us and we assume that bigger is always better or that we're trying to vastly overcompensate for something we lack elsewhere in life.

Gandhi once said, "I like your Christ but I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ." I have found few greater examples of how we as Christians are seen by the lost world. We have failed to engage culture and so we are seen as snobby. We add requirements to what must be believed to be saved, we require suits and ties and liking hymns (which I love) and we require full time attendence and all kinds of things (not that suits or attendence or such things are bad in and of themselves) and we many of us (thanks Mr. Finney) require people to only make a response to the gospel at a certain time, it's usually after we've bashed the pharisee's throughout the sermon who added to the law.

WE are great at encouraging each other to serve the Lord with gladness and then to remind ourselves that God is not served with human hands as if He needed anything. That assages our consciences and lets us rest easy, but we forget what Kalled reminded us of, in that you did or did not do it unto the least of these you did or did not do it unto the Lord Jesus.

Emergents aren't looking for great doctrine, you're never going to convince emergents they're wrong by just shouting over the internet "EMERGENTS ARE GOING TO HELL!" All that accomplishes is to create quarrels and fighting and division and to further our (Christiandom in its entirety) image of lacking the very grace we proclaim.

This emergent movement is different than a lot of the other faiths out there. The only way to show their falsehood and our own authenticity is to outdo them in being Christian and acting in a Christ like manner. How appropriate that Christians act like Christ, since Christos was originally defined "little Christ".


Finally, Denny, Kalled wasn't making backhanded accusations but speaking the truth, it is unchristian to make fun of people, or have we all forgotten Paul's words to the Corinthians? "From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. . . We put no obstacle in anyone's way, so that no fault may be found with our ministry" (II Corinthians 5:16a and 6:3). Also, I looked it up just to make sure, but I assume when you call his thoughts tripe that you're refering to the second definition, that it has no value and is as rubbish. How is having the 2nd side in what is to be a conversation of no value? Kalled presents us with a challenge and a question and calls us to consider and determine based on the Word of God, I call that something of value. Further, if you are as I think you were, trying to speak ill of Kalled's comments then I would suggest you not use the word sophistry because it carries the connotation that 1. his arguement is plausible (though misleading) and 2. that it displays ingenuity of reasoning (with hope to deceive someone). I trust also that you are not trying to say that Kalled2Preach is delibrately trying to mislead, if possible, even the elect because that to me seems to be lible (since it's in print). Simply put, I believe idolaters need Jesus too & I would be curious to know how much experience you've had with the mentally ill?

Well, I know I look forward to the days when my church and your church and the church universal will be known for its faith and love and good deeds which lead to and show a life of repentence. Christ Jesus came not to be served but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many. If any of us desires to be great He must first be the servant of all.

Grace be with all of us as we seek true consistancy in being Reformed and always Reforming to the Glory of God.

Brother Luke


"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good (or benefit) is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe- and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the alter? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness"- and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messangers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."


Acts 5:27-42







A. W. Tozer is awesome.