Posts: 15,025
Joined: April 2001
|
|
|
|
Forums31
Topics8,348
Posts56,543
Members992
| |
Most Online2,383 Jan 12th, 2026
|
|
|
#4106
Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:04 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274
Head Honcho
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,025 Likes: 274 |
You have continued to equate justice with evil because you have maintained that the punishment promised to the wicked is "torture", e.g., you wrote: You [Pilgrim] wrote: "Let's clear up one thing straight away, shall we? Nowhere in all of God's written Word can it be found that God is going to TORTURE human beings and/or their souls."
I simply don't understand this at all, is God Almighty? Is God in control? Is God the source of Salvation? How can you say that God is not the one, according to your view of Christianity, that is going to punish. If God is not going to do the things that the preachers teach, who is? But this is a self-imposed view and has nothing to do with truth nor reality. I affirmed that God is going to mete out [color:red]PUNISHMENT. And then you immediately equate punishment with TORTURE. So, once again I must tell you that the two terms are not synonyms. And, if it is of any consolation to you, it is not certain that the flames spoken of in the Bible to describe Hell are physical flames. My personal understanding is that the Bible speaks of flames symbolically, as in a parable, to describe something which otherwise could not be comprehended. Thus the "flames of hell" are descriptive of the punishment that awaits the wicked, i.e., Hell will be unbearable. But Hell is not a place where one would see humans roasting over an open fire for eternity. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/drop.gif" alt="drop" title="drop[/img] I'm also curious as to who these "teachers of Christianity" are that you mentioned a few times? You obviously accept them as being paradigmatic of all who profess to be Christian teachers and their teaching is representative of all who profess to be Christians. I would certainly accept Jonathan Edwards' teaching on hell to be biblical sound, if that is of any help to you? I would offer to you also two articles which are faithful to the teaching of God's Word: CORAM DEO: IN JUDGMENTDo the Flames Ever Stop in Hell?In reply to: [color:"blue"]Not only do I question the justice of infinite punishment for finite crimes . . .
[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/hello.gif" alt="hello" title="hello[/img] Have you read anything that I have written to you? The sins committed by man against GOD are infinite in scope and thus deserve infinite punishment. Further, you have totally dismissed and/or ignored the fact that primarily, men are going to be cast into eternal hell not because of what they have done, but rather because of who they ARE!! The reprobate are INFINITELY wicked because the very nature of all men from conception onward is depraved, corrupt, evil, wicked, vile, etc. Thus ALL that men do by nature is sinful; sin being the expression of their beings. So, unless the Sovereign Lord recreates a man's nature, he will continue to hate God and all that is good for eternity. Thus, infinite punishment is without question, JUST! Let me include the text of Gen 18:25 this time so that you cannot miss it. (ASV) "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? The context is the impending and imminent destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by God upon the wicked of that city. Abraham tried to bargain with God in the hope of sparing the city by appealing to God's sense of justice. In short, Abraham's argument was that it would not be just to destroy the entire city when there might be righteous men living there; even if there were but 5 among them. Abraham never argued against nor rejected the principle of justice and punishment upon the wicked. In the N.T., the very same God Who Abraham spoke to on the plains of Mamre also spoke to the Pharisees and common Jew of the first century and He continues to speak to us today in and through His infallible Word. Matthew 11:20-27 (ASV) "Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which were done in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And thou, Capernaum, shalt thou be exalted unto heaven? thou shalt go down unto Hades: for if the mighty works had been done in Sodom which were done in thee, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight. All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.]"
Mark 6:11 (KJV) "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city." That which happened to Sodom and Gomorrah is used as an example of the punishment coming upon all who refuse to repent and turn to God by casting themselves down and trusting in Christ Jesus the Lord and His substitutionary work. The suffering which came upon the residents of those two cities is said to be "tolerable" compared to the suffering which is to come to all the unrepentant. The most pressing issue for you today is not whether there will be eternal torment and if it is just, but Will you repent and turn to God in Christ Jesus the Lord? Even if there was no endless punishment or even any punishment, to be reconciled to God is of primary importance. Lastly, I would really like to know what it is that you believe concerning: [*]What will be the end of mankind?[*]Life after death: Does it exist?[*]Is it necessary that justice be executed upon mankind? Does there need to be a final accountability for one's life?[*]Do you believe in a "god"? If so, could you describe it/him for me?[*]What source(s) do you consult to find truth?[*]Do you believe that there IS absolute truth; true truth, propositional truth? and that it is knowable?[/LIST]In reply to: [color:"blue"]I’m really surprised by the confrontational tone of your reply to me, if I have offended, with my question, in anyway, I apologize. I simply cannot understand how evil is turned into good through Christian doctrine. I cannot worship a god that is going to burn people alive forever, something is very wrong.
We do agree on one thing..... you CANNOT (inability) and WILL NOT (refusal) worship the one true God Who has revealed Himself in Scripture because you hate Him with your whole being. You consider Him to be "evil" and a despicable being because He has promised and will render justice to all who are at enmity with Him. What is wrong is your understanding of what is "good", what is "evil", the magnitude of "depravity" of the human soul, the incomprehensibility of the "holiness" of God, etc.
In His Grace,
simul iustus et peccator
|
|
|
|
|
Entire Thread
|
Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sat Jul 19, 2003 8:28 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
J_Edwards
|
Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:27 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sat Jul 19, 2003 10:40 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Pilgrim
|
Sun Jul 20, 2003 1:24 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:12 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Pilgrim
|
Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:04 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:22 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Pilgrim
|
Mon Jul 21, 2003 5:01 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Tom
|
Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:00 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:45 AM
|
Contradiction
|
Anonymous
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:05 PM
|
Re: Contradiction
|
fredman
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:26 PM
|
Re: Contradiction
|
Anonymous
|
Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:47 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
J_Edwards
|
Sun Jul 20, 2003 1:01 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:04 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
J_Edwards
|
Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:03 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
J_Edwards
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:28 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:40 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:15 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:46 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sat Jul 19, 2003 11:03 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sun Jul 20, 2003 1:31 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:24 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sun Jul 20, 2003 6:53 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:23 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Wes
|
Sun Jul 20, 2003 3:34 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:00 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:13 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Wes
|
Mon Jul 21, 2003 3:04 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:16 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:28 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:47 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:16 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:41 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:07 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:33 AM
|
Intellect vs Emotion
|
Anonymous
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:56 PM
|
Re: Intellect vs Emotion
|
Pilgrim
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:38 PM
|
Re: Intellect vs Emotion
|
Anonymous
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:20 PM
|
Re: Intellect vs Emotion
|
Anonymous
|
Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:02 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:10 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
carlos
|
Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:57 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:27 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:38 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:06 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:38 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
carlos
|
Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:31 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:25 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Pilgrim
|
Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:30 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
onefear
|
Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:28 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Pilgrim
|
Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:50 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
onefear
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:19 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Pilgrim
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:38 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
onefear
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:12 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Pilgrim
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:24 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:44 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
carlos
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:41 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Hannahsmom
|
Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:59 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:48 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:42 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:32 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:27 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:34 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:22 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:19 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:16 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
J_Edwards
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:56 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
carlos
|
Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:52 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
carlos
|
Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:44 AM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:02 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Anonymous
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:47 PM
|
Re: Please Help Me Understand
|
Pilgrim
|
Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:49 PM
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
741
guests, and
113
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
31
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|
|