The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Please Help Me Understand

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I have been told that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for infinite sin with a finite payment, eternal punishment being the required payment was paid in just 3 days by Jesus dying spiritually. I do not believe that Jesus Christ died spiritually, that’s a doctrine presented by Benny Hinn, Copeland, and the like.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Let's be careful in how we represent what others have written. In particular is your either misunderstanding or deliberately misconstruing what I wrong concerning the two types of "death" which the Lord Christ experienced. Here is the actual statement I made which spells out the nature of the "spiritual death" that Christ experienced:<blockquote>As for the Lord Christ only being in the tomb for 3 days, you should realize that His physical death is not equivalent to His spiritual death, i.e., separation from God and the enduring of the punishment put upon Him as the elect's substitute. He, being the GOD-man, endured the INFINITE wrath of God in a moment's time. What He must have had to endure is infinitely incomprehensible to one with a finite mind. But, rest assured, that unless Christ Jesus endured the FULL penalty for ALL the sins of those whom He came to die for, then no one is capable of reconciliation with God and remission of sins.</blockquote><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Salvation, the defeat of death, is based upon a vicarious substitutionary atonement.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Yes this is absolutely true. But what you are missing is that the "defeat of death" could only be accomplished by the payment owed, which was eternal death. Thus ipso facto, unless Christ suffered eternal punishment, then eternal life, i.e., defeat of death could not have been secured. You also totally ignored all the Scriptural references I offered to you. They were given as full texts rather than simple references so that you wouldn't have to look them up. The only comment you made was,<blockquote>As for the verses used to “prove” that God is going to do the horrific acts Christians leaders describe to us I have studied them all, and they are not conclusive, I have found other explanations for all of them, intellect will let you find what you are looking for.</blockquote>You have offered not ONE single rebuttal to any of those texts which speak of eternal punishment, hell fire, etc., etc... which were spoken by the Lord Christ Himself. In fact, He taught more about Hell and eternal torment more than any other biblical writer. Why don't you interact with HIS inspired, infallible and inerrant words? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/evilgrin.gif" alt="evilgrin" title="evilgrin[/img]<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"](Oh, as an aside, when Adam and Eve fell and were giving their punishment, physical death, a return to the dust from which they came and a curse, hers, trouble in child birth, his, hard work there is no mention of eternal torment in the fires of “hell”! You would think that if that were going to be the punishment for most of Adam and Eve’s offspring that God would I mentioned it along with the other curses.)</font><hr></blockquote><p>Oh really! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img] So God lied? These are the exact words spoken by God to Adam:<blockquote>Genesis 2:16-17 (ASV) And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for [color:red]in the day</font color=red> that thou eatest thereof [color:red]thou shalt surely die</font color=red>.</blockquote>Did Adam die on that very day as God had threatened would happen? If you restrict death to physical death, then God lied. Using the analogy of faith (interpreting Scripture with Scripture), we learn that this "death" was three-fold:<ol>[*]Physical Death: the beginning of aging and eventual death started on that day.</li>[*]Spiritual Death: separation from God due to a radical change in nature/disposition</li>[*]Eternal Death: the punishment due for the transgression was sealed.</li>[/LIST]Thus Adam and Eve died on that very day, in fact, at the very moment that they ate of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. This change in nature/disposition was the one half of the punishment of "Original Sin" which came upon Adam and the entire human race. This condition, classically and theologically known as "Total Depravity" is taught throughout the Scriptures. Paul describes this death in Rom 3:10-18 and most clearly in Eph 2:1-5; 4:17-19.<br><br>Lastly, Prestor John asked you a question concerning the nature of the LORD Jesus Christ and I found your answer a bit vague. So, I would like to ask the question again but rephrased in the hopes that there will be no possibility of confusion:<br><br>QUESTION: Was Jesus of Nazareth both Jehovah God (God of very God) and man?<br><br>And for a detailed statement of what I personally believe concerning the person and nature of the LORD Jesus Christ, see below:<blockquote><center>[color:blue]The Chalcedonian Creed</font color=blue></center><br><br>Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.</blockquote>In His Grace,