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Tom, The quote which you provided by Pink clearly contradicts what this elder friend of yours maintains, i.e., regeneration has no effect on total depravity. Again, God renews every faculty of the soul and spirit of the one born again, not perfectly and finally, for we are “renewed day by day” (II Cor. 4: 16), but so as to enable those faculties to be exercised upon spiritual objects... He does not eradicate it, but He dethrones it, so that it no longer has dominion over the heart. Instead of sin ruling the Christian, and that by his own willing subjection, it is resisted and hated. That alone refutes his position, especially the last sentence and this phrase, " it is resisted and hated". Someone who is totally depraved doesn't resist sin but revels in it. And one who is totally depraved certainly doesn't hate sin but rather he loves sin and hates all that is good. What this elder friend of yours seems to be promoting is the classic Arminian concept of "prevenient grace", but even the Remonstrance believed that after this "ability to overcome one's depravity in order to be able to repent and believe" and consequently regeneration took place, one's total depravity was broken, i.e., it no longer had dominion, which is what Pink and all the Reformed Confessions state. One thing about Pink, which you probably should take into account is that he was a trichotomist vs. the majority of Christians who are dichotomist, thus he makes much of the "flesh" as being almost another entity that wars against the 'spirit' and 'soul' rather than the 'spirit' and 'soul' being synonymous. Let's look at what some of the Reformed Confessions teach: The Belgic Confession of Faith, Article XV Original Sin We believe that through the disobedience of Adam original sin is extended to all mankind; which is a corruption of the whole nature and a hereditary disease, wherewith even infants in their mother's womb are infected, and which produces in man all sorts of sin, being in him as a root thereof, and therefore is so vile and abominable in the sight of God that it is sufficient to condemn all mankind. Nor is it altogether abolished or wholly eradicated even by regeneration;[1] since sin always issues forth from this woeful source, as water from a fountain; notwithstanding it is not imputed to the children of God unto condemnation, but by His grace and mercy is forgiven them. Not that they should rest securely in sin, but that a sense of this corruption should make believers often to sigh, desiring to be delivered from this body of death. The Belgic Confession of Faith, Article XXIV Man's Sanctification and Good Works We believe that this true faith, being wrought in man by the hearing of the Word of God and the operation of the Holy Spirit, sanctifies [1] him and makes him a new man, causing him to live a new life, and freeing him from the bondage of sin. Therefore it is so far from being true that this justifying faith makes men remiss in a pious and holy life, that on the contrary without it they would never do anything out of love to God, but only out of self-love or fear of damnation. Therefore it is impossible that this holy faith can be unfruitful in man; for we do not speak of a vain faith, but of such a faith which is called in Scripture a faith working through love, which excites man to the practice of those works which God has commanded in His Word. These works, as they proceed from the good root of faith, are good and acceptable in the sight of God, forasmuch as they are all sanctified by His grace. Nevertheless they are of no account towards our justification, for it is by faith in Christ that we are justified, even before we do good works; otherwise they could not be good works, any more than the fruit of a tree can be good before the tree itself is good. The Canons of Dort, Third and Fourth Heads of Doctrine The Corruption of Man, His Conversion to God, & the Manner Thereof - Articles of Faith Article 1 Man was originally formed after the image of God. His understanding was adorned with a true and saving knowledge of his Creator, and of spiritual things; his heart and will were upright, all his affections pure, and the whole man was holy. But, revolting from God by the instigation of the devil and by his own free will, he forfeited these excellent gifts; and in the place thereof became involved in blindness of mind, horrible darkness, vanity, and perverseness of judgment; became wicked, rebellious, and obdurate in heart and will, and impure in his affections. Article 2 Man after the fall begat children in his own likeness. A corrupt stock produced a corrupt offspring. Hence all the posterity of Adam, Christ only excepted, have derived corruption from their original parent, not by imitation, as the Pelagians of old asserted, but by the propagation of a vicious nature, in consequence of the just judgment of God. Article 3 Therefore all men are conceived in sin, and are by nature children of wrath, incapable of saving good, prone to evil, dead in sin, and in bondage thereto; and without the regenerating grace of the Holy Spirit, they are neither able nor willing to return to God, to reform the depravity of their nature, or to dispose themselves to reformation. Article 11 But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions. Article 12 And this is that regeneration so highly extolled in Scripture, that renewal, new creation, resurrection from the dead, making alive, which God works in us without our aid. But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation that, after God has performed His part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted or to continue unconverted; but it is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable; not inferior in efficacy to creation or the resurrection from the dead, as the Scripture inspired by the Author of this work declares; so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe. Whereupon the will thus renewed is not only actuated and influenced by God, but in consequence of this influence becomes itself active. Wherefore also man himself is rightly said to believe and repent by virtue of that grace received. See also the "Fifth Head of Doctrine - The Perseverance of the Saints"The Second Helvetic Confession - Chapter IX Of Free Will, and Thus of Human Powers What Man Was After the Fall. Then we are to consider what man was after the fall. To be sure, his reason was not taken from him, nor was he deprived of will, and he was not entirely changed into a stone or a tree. But they were so altered and weakened that they no longer can do what they could before the fall. For the understanding is darkened, and the will which was free has become an enslaved will. Now it serves sin, not unwillingly but willingly. And indeed, it is called a will, not an unwill(ing).[1] Of What Kind Are the Powers of the Regenerate, and in What Way Their Wills Are Free. Finally, we must see whether the regenerate have free wills, and to what extent. In regeneration the understanding is illumined by the Holy Spirit in order that it may understand both the mysteries and the will of God. And the will itself is not only changed by the Spirit, but it is also equipped with faculties so that it wills and is able to do the good of its own accord (Rom. 8:1 ff.). Unless we grant this, we will deny Christian liberty and introduce a legal bondage. But the prophet has God saying: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts (Jer. 31:33; Ezek. 36:26 f.). The Lord also says in the Gospel: If the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed (John 8:36). Paul also writes to the Philippians: It has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake (Phil. 1:29). Again: I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ (v. 6). Also: God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure (ch. 2:13). The Regenerate Work Not Only Passively but Actively. However, in this connection we teach that there are two things to be observed: First, that the regenerate, in choosing and doing good, work not only passively but actively. For they are moved by God that they may do themselves what they do. For Augustine rightly adduces the saying that "God is said to be our helper. But no one can be helped unless he does something." The Manichaeans robbed man of all activity and made him like a stone or block of wood. The Free Will Is Weak in the Regenerate. Secondly, in the regenerate a weakness remains. For since sin dwells in us, and in the regenerate the flesh struggles against the Spirit till the end of our lives, they do not easily accomplish in all things what they had planned. These things are confirmed by the apostle in Rom., ch. 7, and Gal., ch. 5. Therefore that free will is weak in us on account of the remnants of the old Adam and of innate human corruption remaining in us until the end of our lives. Meanwhile, since the power of the flesh and the remnants of the old man are not so efficacious that they wholly extinguish the work of the Spirit, for that reason the faithful are said to be free, yet so that they acknowledge their inffrmity and do not glory at all in their free will. For believers ought always to keep in mind what St. Augustine so many times inculcated according to the apostle: "What have you that you did not receive? If then you received, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?" To this he adds that what we have planned does not immediately come to pass. For the issue of things lies in the hand of God. This is the reason Paul prayed to the Lord to prosper his journey (Rom. 1:10). And this also is the reason the free will is weak. I could also quote from the Westminster Confession, Savoy Declaration and others which ALL teach the same truths are those quoted above. In regeneration there is an ACTUAL and RADICAL change to the nature of man in which the TOTAL DEPRAVITY of man's original fallen state is defeated and changed, albeit not completely eradicated. The regenerated man, out of his renewed (regenerated, born again, born anew, enlivened) nature desires and wills to do that which is good, which previously was impossible due to the inherited sin nature; total depravity. This is NOT a "new movement" to change or deny what the historic Reformed Faith has taught, but rather to AFFIRM what has been taught and recorded in the great Reformation confessions and catechisms.
simul iustus et peccator
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Entire Thread
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Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Tom
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:05 AM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:09 AM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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RJ_
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:05 PM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:21 PM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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sojourner
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:19 PM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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sojourner
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:43 PM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Tom
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:11 PM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:16 PM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Tom
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Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:41 AM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Jobeluan65
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Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:28 AM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Pilgrim
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Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:48 PM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:06 PM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Tom
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:28 PM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Pilgrim
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Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:18 PM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Tom
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Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:47 AM
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Re: Total Depravity & Dead in Trespasses & Sins
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Pilgrim
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Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:42 AM
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