Originally Posted by JesusFan
Would say that the NT position is best supported by believers Baptist model, but also would say that we in Christ can agree to disagree over this, as it needs to be addressed in charity towards one another!
Agreed that the two sides can agree to disagree on the basic issues. However, most Baptist churches REQUIRE that a person be baptized as an adult AND by immersion or you will not be received into membership. This is a denial of sola fide since it makes baptism by immersion a requirement for justification. Oh no, you say!! Really? What is required for membership in the Church of Jesus Christ? ... a credible profession of faith and the testimony of a godly life. Read Jonathan Edwards' treatise on Church Membership.

Originally Posted by JesusFan
And the person submitting in the water baptism is declaring salvation, so why would they not be able to be sure of that truth before immersion?
Again, the subjectivity of baptism is irrelevant to a proper understanding of what baptism MEANS/IS, in and of itself sans the recipient, whether adult or infant. This is one of the major fallacies which most baptists fall into. They are obsessed with the person being baptized and have little interest and/or knowledge of baptism itself. The "declaring salvation" by an individual does not determine the definition of baptism. A Mercedes Benz is a Mercedes Benz regardless of who is driving it, whether a person who bought it from a dealer or a carjacker who stole it by force.

Originally Posted by JesusFan
Are their not many who have been sprinkled as a baby, and yet never been saved later on then?
Absolutely!! In fact, I would dare say that most infants who have been baptized remain in their sins and are under the just judgement of God. And, I would say that over history the same applies to adults who profess faith in Christ. Is it not true that in Israel all males were circumcised (sign of the OT covenant)? Is it not true that Moses told them that they need to circumcise the foreskins of their hearts (conversion to God)? Is it not also true that the overwhelming majority of Jews perished and continue to perish in unbelief? The SIGN OF THE COVENANT (of grace/Abrahamic) whether in the OT or NT does not declare the infallible salvation of the individual. It is a declaration of the Gospel which ever remains the same from its beginning to the end.


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simul iustus et peccator

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