The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum 'Water and the Spirit'

John 3:5. 'Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."'

Do these words have anything to say about baptism, and if so, what?

Blessings to all,
Steve

'Water and Spirit' single choice
	John 3:5 is speaking about baptism
	John 3:5 says nothing about baptism
	Dunno
Votes accepted starting: Thu May 27, 2004 6:37 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

I think Jesus is speaking of being born physically and then "from above" to be saved.

There are other texts where "water and the Spirit" are found together, cf. 1:26, 31; Matt 3:11; Mk 1:8; Lk 3:16, where water and Spirit are found side by side, in connection with baptism.

Baptism, however is not sufficient in itself to save; the Spirit's work of regeneration (new birth), irresistible grace, etc., must be done. In fact, in many other places in Scripture, it is this work which is said to be needed to be saved without the addition of baptism by water, e.g., in vss. 6 and 8.

In His Grace,

Steve,

Some suggest that the "water" is the release of fluid that accompanies physical birth, but linguistic considerations point to understanding "water" and "Spirit" as referring to a single spiritual birth. Many interpreters understand "water" here as the water of baptism, but such a reference, before Christian baptism was instituted, would have been meaningless to Nicodemus. Others find a reference to John's baptism, but Jesus nowhere makes John's baptism a requirement for salvation. Probably the statement refers to Old Testament passages to which the terms "water" and "Spirit" are linked to express the pouring out of God's Spirit in the end times (Is. 32:15; 44:3; Ezek. 36:25-27). The presence of such rich Old Testament imagery accounts for Jesus' reproof of Nicodemus (v. 10): as a "teacher of Israel," he should have understood. [notes from my Geneva Study Bible]


Wes

This is refering to one needing two births. One physical and one spiritual.

I'm familiar with that position too. But what has always bothered me, outside of exegetical problems is that it would imply that unless one completes a natural birth, then salvation is excluded. This would totally eliminate any possibility of infants who die in infancy from God's saving grace. I wonder if you have entertained that little "wrinkle"? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

I had certaintly never thought about that. Then again, my stance on infant salvation, the more I have read, is to just trust that God will do right when an infant dies and will do what will assure Him getting the most glory. But that's off topic.

What are the exegetical problems with that view saying it means a physical and a spiritual birth, if I may ask?

Thanks for your replies, everyone.
I think that Wes has got it right. The text is very clear; without this two-fold birth, no one will enter the Kingdom. Therefore if the 'water' refers to baptism, then the thief on the cross, and the whole bodies of Quakers and the Salvation Army (who do not practise water baptism) are lost without exception. Also, as Wes said, our Lord chides Nicodemus for not knowing what He (Jesus) is talking about (v10). This would be unfair if the reference is to baptism because there is no OT index that Nicodemus could have picked up to help him understand.

So whatever the 'water' is, there must be an OT reference to it. What the Lord Jesus is saying is that the New Birth is a two-fold operation by the Holy Spirit (V6): the washing away of sins and Spiritual renewal.

Ezek 36:25ff. 'Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols......
[obviously no outward washing can cleanse from these inward impurities]
......I will give you a new heart and put a new sprit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and keep them, and you will keep My judgements and do them.'

Psalm 51:7ff. 'Purge (NIV 'wash') me with hyssop and I shall be clean; wash me and I shall be whiter than snow.......create in me a clean heart, O my God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.'

And for a NT reference:-

Titus 3:4-5. 'But when the kindness and the love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.'

What is the New Birth? It is a birth of water and Spirit, washing and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

I do not think the idea of the 'water' as a picture of a physical birth really works. The Lord Jesus goes on to say, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' Here He is talking of 'flesh' not 'water' as meaning physical birth. I do not think He would mix His metaphors in that way.

Bishop Ryle has an excellent treatment of this passage in the notes to his 'Expository thoughts on John' Vol 1 (Banner of Truth). John Murray is also good ('Redempton Accomplished and Applied').

Blessings to all,
Steve