The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Regulative principle

Amen, OS_X. I totally agree. (I picture in my mind the music to a McDonald's ad or a Coca-Cola ad with the words to a Psalm as the lyrics. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Eeeeeek.gif" alt="" /> )

Hi Ruth - looking at his criteria first for determining what is 'good music', it's decidely eurocentric/western in its' definition. There are more styles and genres of music around the world that western music.


Who determines what makes the melody beautiful ? There are a few classical songs and songs from the Romantic period that were very popular in their time and are still so among string players that I find to be 'average' and not necessarily 'beautiful'.

Harmony - what type of tonality, major, natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor, or some of the atonal music (like some pieces by Debussy which seem to have no tonal center).

A subtle rhythm ? What about some of the African drum music that our brothers and sisters in Christ worship to which have strong rhythmic patterns to them ? Are they excluded as well ?

Who exactly determines what a meaningful resolution is ? Comparing to the literary world, which one of you would've written the book of Acts to end the way it does ? No real resolution ? Likewise, there are plenty of pieces (especially in Jazz) that seem to have no real 'ending' as we traditionally know an ending to sound.

And lastly, who determines what is being communicated and how effectively ? What's your standard for all of this ? Is it universal ? So why doesn't eastern music, some African music and a host of other cultures fit into this mold ?

This is just ONE item that needs to be challenged. I don't believe music is morally neutral, but at the same time, I don't believe that one style of music is correct and others are not. Most proponents of the RPW that argue for a particular style, consciously or not, argue for a 16-18th century, western style of music and impose their values on those they criticize as the 'norm' which should be followed. It takes humility and exposure to other cultures to take off your own cultural blinders and remember that the body of Christ is indeed DIVERSE and not composed of one tribe, nation, tongue and people. And as different as the people are, expect their expression (not the CONTENT, but the expression) of the gospel and their worship (which includes the music) to be different as well.

Thanks for the reply Pilgrim and setting the record straight on this issue. I do not like knowing that I've held incorrect information even with something kind of minor like this. Another "deception" unfolded for me!

Here are a few more good links:.......
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=2639&loc_id=639,624
http://www.umc.org/umns/news_archive2002...A}&mid=2399
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=2639&loc_id=17,387

Good links. Thank you, HCRigby!!

What no instruments? What do we do with all the descendants of Jubal?
Genesis 4:21 And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

I do not appreciate the "contemporary" music scene that seems more like a rock concert than a worship service. Once I observed maybe ten or fifteen minutes of one and had to walk out. It was dreadful.

We do however, have examples of David dancing, tamborines, and various instruments being used in a jubilant procession.1 Chronicles 15:27 And David was clothed with a robe of fine linen, and all the Levites that bare the ark, and the singers, and Chenaniah the master of the song with the singers: David also had upon him an ephod of linen. 28 Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, making a noise with psalteries and harps. 29 And it came to pass, as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the city of David, that Michal the daughter of Saul looking out at a window saw king David dancing and playing: and she despised him in her heart.

Guess it didn't go over well with his wife but, there certainly are examples of various kinds of vocal and instrumental music being used in the worship of God.

Hi Chestnutmare,

I don't think you can compare the moving of the Ark to our Sunday worship meetings. I do think there are times that that kind of music is okay, but do not agree that it is acceptable in a worship service. I think that kind of music brings in an emotional, humanistic beat and rhythm that is not awe inspiring and honoring in itself. Just my 2 cents!

In His Hands,

Ruth

Oh, but I am in agreement. As I said, I did once walk out of a service where that was the practice. The "worship" was actually a rock 'n roll concert. The church bills itself as "not your grandfather's church." They live up to it. It is not friendly toward all ages. Plus, as you mentioned it is quite humanistic in focus, in fact, I found it to be blasphemous therefore, I left. Thankfully, my church doesn't practice the seeker sensitive movement and we do sing the psalter and Trinity hymnal. My point is that the use of musical instruments is not prohibited in scripture. The misuse of them is.

Agreed!!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />

(We have done the same thing, only we didn't even wait for the service to start! When the big screen lowered from the ceiling and the band set up on stage, we were "out of there!")

In His Hands,

Ruth)

Pretty scary isn't it. To think that going to worship the Lord God Almighty isn't enough that people have to set up entertainment. Whew!

So our emotions aren't to be moved at all in any kind of worship ?

And as I asked earlier - what do you do with worship music from other countries which doesn't sound like what you consider to be 'awe inspiring' ?

Funny, but I don't find anyone who has participated in this thread even hinting that the emotive element of man isn't to be involved in worship? You bringing that up is affectionately known as a "wringer"! God is to be worshipped with the whole man, mind, emotions and will. The issue is what part each element is to play in worship and of what does worship consist?

I would contend that the emotions are that which are effected by the truth, first understood by the mind; i.e., the objective truths of God, for example through the preaching of the Word and its compliment, the singing of the Word. To focus upon the emotions apart from the mind is not biblical worship. Unfortunately, many today do exactly that by using musical "styles" to directly effect the emotions and in so doing, by-pass the mind, which is in direct contradiction to such texts as Rom 12:1, 2:

Romans 12:1-2 (ASV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, [which is] your spiritual service. And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Actually, what you asked earlier was:

looking at his criteria first for determining what is 'good music', it's decidedly eurocentric/western in its' definition. There are more styles and genres of music around the world that western music. . . . who determines what is being communicated and how effectively ? What's your standard for all of this ? Is it universal ? So why doesn't eastern music, some African music and a host of other cultures fit into this mold ? . . . This is just ONE item that needs to be challenged. I don't believe music is morally neutral, but at the same time, I don't believe that one style of music is correct and others are not. Most proponents of the RPW that argue for a particular style, consciously or not, argue for a 16-18th century, western style of music and impose their values on those they criticize as the 'norm' which should be followed. It takes humility and exposure to other cultures to take off your own cultural blinders and remember that the body of Christ is indeed DIVERSE and not composed of one tribe, nation, tongue and people. And as different as the people are, expect their expression (not the CONTENT, but the expression) of the gospel and their worship (which includes the music) to be different as well.

The problem here is that it would appear that you consider "culture" to be amoral, i.e., the various cultures found throughout the world are to be considered initially acceptable from which to draw various elements; specifically their music. But I would suggest that Scripture would argue against you in that it teaches that ALL cultures by nature are antithetical to God and have been from the beginning. Culture is nothing more than the out-working/expression of men's philosophies and desires, which by nature are at enmity with God. The worship of the living God is to be "in truth" (Jh 4:24). But the nations "exchange the truth for a lie" (Rom 1:25) The apostle John tells us further what the world consists: "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." (Jh 2:16)

Secondly, music undeniably has been used by mankind to evoke the emotive element of men to serve purposes which are unseemly, idolatrous, provocative in nature, etc. A cursory study of these various cultures from which you would have us extract music shows how profane this music is when one also compares the bodily movements associated with their respective musical forms; aka: dance. One could hardly approve of such bodily expressions in the worship of the thrice Holy God of the Scriptures. One particular rhythm, the syncopated beat, has been studied in great detail and its effects upon the human psyche and emotions is well documented. The evidence gathered from these studies shows incontrovertibly that the effects of this "beat" is counter to that which Scripture enjoins upon those who would follow after Christ and who desire to be conformed to His image.

Thirdly, your objection to "euro-centric" music is easily countered by an appeal to the fact that God chose to bless certain areas of the world with His transforming Spirit and grace and to by-pass the majority of the world's population, leaving it to it's paganism, idolatry and sin. There can be no denying that the Gospel was given exceptional power in Europe whereby men where transformed by its power and from which the greatest achievements in mankind resulted. As the Gospel spread throughout Europe, men cast off their previous lifestyles and adopted those which emulated Christ and glorified God according to His self-revelation in His Word. We are given examples of this in Scripture, e.g., in Ephesus when the Gospel arrived in power, men took those things which they once held to be precious and burned them publicly. (Acts 19:19)

Much more could be said concerning "beauty" and other criteria which should be incorporated into music which seeks to glorify (reflect God's attributes and nature), but perhaps that would be best considered in a separate thread.

In His Grace,

I will address all of your arguments in time, Pilgrim.

But this statement particularly, stuck out to me:


So you're saying that because of the music produced by the culture in Europe or something that Europe did, God chose to bless them ? How calvinistic of you. :lol: God could've just as easily blessed any other part of the world with growth (and is doing so NOW...look at the decline of the church in Europe and in America, but its' growth in other countries...). God's blessing and choosing one nation to bless over another is NEVER contingent upon man's works, culture, etc....

That isn't what I said at all; you have it reversed. BTW, I hold to orthodox, historic Calvinism which is totally consistent with what I actually said, which was that BECAUSE God blessed Europe for a time, the RESULT was that men were transformed and thus the worship of God was restored to its biblical expression. Yes, God could have blessed other nations, but He chose not to. But if He had, then their paganism would have been cast off and similar results would have occurred. The fact that the blessings of God and the restraining power of the Spirit have now been basically withdrawn is the reason why Europe and the Western nations have fallen once again into debaucherous living and its music is reflective of their godless thinking.

I look forward to your counter arguments along with biblical support.
In His Grace,

And it is a notable fact that the Bible never refers to New Testament church meetings as "worship services" or anything similar. While one could say that being obedient to biblical principles regarding the Lord's Day church meeting is a form of worship, I do not believe that it is any more or less a form of worship than being obedient to scriptural precepts in other aspects of the Christian life. The primary purpose of the church meeting, I believe, is not to perform "worship service" but to instruct the brethren in how to manifest the worship God throughout one's life by properly applying the commandments of God throughout one's life. Worship consists of much more than the things one does for a few hours in a building once or twice per week.