Church can be stressful at times <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />
There is a situation which I will have to deal with Sunday, not because it was my idea, I was ask to attend a meeting that was called, just found out about it last night. Problem is I really don't know what I'm going to say in the meeting, maybe sit there with my mouth shut, but that's not why I was ask to attend, other people there are bringing with them the book of rules for our church,thats fine, but I need Bible answers for this situation. I feel bad right now because I should know the answer to this, as where it can be found in the Bible, but I'm mad,upset,I do not want to deal with this, but on the other hand it should be brought to attention.And for some reason they want me. You guy's this is it help, my Rev. who is male, has a right hand woman, they are like to pea's in a pod, they are so close I'm thinking bad thoughts right now, but the meeting is about how the women rules over my Pastor, he follows along with what ever she say's. so how do we get this behavior to stop, what can be brought to make him see he is in error.I feel we need GOD's words, not just church rules.
This is where you guy's come in,what is in the Bible, do I have the right to tell him anything at all, other people want to talk to her, so she will back off, but I know this women well, and that not going to happen, so I want to talk to him, I blame him for letting it come to this. almost forgot this meeting was not called by the Elders of the church but they know it is going on, and most of the people in the meeting will be women.
Didn't you say before that you either go to an UMC or PCUSA church. They are both liberal and will most likely not be swayed by what the Bible teaches.
You may be looking for the passage in Timothy - 1 Timothy 9 - 15 where Paul says he doesn't allow women to teach or exercise authority.
In addition, Ephesians 5:22 - 33 speaks of male authoriy.
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ."Colossians 2:7
The verses you gave me I will read, Pilgrim sent me information days ago which would have helped, but me big dummy deleted it, I didnot mean to but my brain must have been in space some where.
John, what do you mean the bible will not sway my Revs. ways because we are Methodist,if I remember liberal it means, that church rules are at level with GODS commandments but,he is a pastor if I find out that his conference rules come before the bible in that meeting <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/argue.gif" alt="" /> oh man I will be in trouble then, my mouth will get me in big trouble.
If it were me, I would not attend an unofficial meeting.
In Matthew 18, Jesus gives us instructions regarding how to handle a situation like this:
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15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed [6] in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
There is also a passage in 1 Timothy 5 that deals with this same issue:
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17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” 19 Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
The important thing to observe from the Timothy passage is that these are Paul's instructions to Timothy, who was Paul's representative to the churches of Thessalonica, Ephesis, Corinth and Phillipi. Timothy was receiving instruction as a leader of the church in a pastoral role as to how church discipline should be handled.
As a lay-woman and member of the church, your concerns must first be taken to your pastor face to face; then if more steps are needed, the next step is to go to your pastor with two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen then it is time to take it to the church. Taking it to the church means to take it to the church Elders, who have the authority and the charge to deal with these issues from a biblical perspective.
I realize that there may be problems with the way the pastor and the Elders handle this. (You say that they are aware of the meeting. . .) Regardless of how anyone else handles this, you must approach this biblically.
There are many here who can give you much better advice and counsel than me and I hope and pray that you will receive the help you need to do what is good in the sight of the Lord in this matter.
Bless you, Neicy!
I'll be praying for you! Kim
Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine Hiraeth
Thanks Kim, I have in December of last year talked to him about the controling nature of this women, but he did not care to listen I guess. I am not sure if I should speak at all, I do not want to be overstepping.
I meant that the majority of the women attending the meeting will not be swayed by biblcal warrants, especially those dealing with male authority.
Both the UMC and PCUSA do not regard the Bible highly. They water down biblical teaching to fit their own ideas. Basically, they have syncretized their Christianity into parts Bible and parts modern cultural ideas. They will somewhat deny that, but what they do is just re-interpret the Bible to fit philosophy of modern society.
John Chaney
"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ."Colossians 2:7
Hey John thanks again, If I bring up male authority,and then the women will be the ones upset, but the whole point of them calling the meeting was a woman being in authority over the pastor, so if that happens this meeting will go no where.
Kim (GoTribe) gave you some EXCELLANT advice, that is to follow the scriptural injunction of Matthew's gospel to approach the pastor personally and if he doesn't hear you to take someone with you to speak, etc.
I also agree with the advice from John C. that you do not attend this meeting. The issue stems from the pastor and your observation that his walk is not straight. You or a responsible elder must confront him and hear what his reason is for acting like a door mat.
As you are not very far away from where I live. ( If I remeber right your from Maryland and I'm from Chesapeake VA. ) I feel that we've got a little regional familiararity in common. I attend a PCUSA church, however I do have many Methodist friends through Emmaus. So I'm familiar with the denomination. So I would like to share a little of my own church experiances.
1. I've been apart and involved with many ministries and the leadership of my church for a while now. Currently I'm a deacon, involved in a small group and an adult Sunday school teacher. I'm also on the prayer chain and my wife is very involved with Presbyterian Women "PW" and her womans circle. So hopefully, Lord willing, I can contribute here.
I'm on my lunch break, so you will have to excuse me. I am not really going to the bible with this. I'm just sharing my own personal experiances. I also have to be a little brief.
First I've have done alot of growing in the last couple of years. I believe that the Lord has blessed me so much in spuring me on to grow more in Christ. One of the things I have really been coming to a clearer understanding of, especially through my reformed faith is the power of sin. In being a firm believer in covanent theology, I really come back to the fact that we're all fallen and effected by sin. We must keep in mind that this is happening with everyone, there is no exception. So even though we're trying to be careful to prevent or correct error, we also must keep in mind that we're all in the same boat. Correction and Rebuking is often a very delicate matter. As from what I'm seeing here by your expressions. You have every right to be nervous. Often times, it takes determination and guts to stand up for God and His Glory. Trying to lead a rightous life in the light isn't easy. Because of the effects of sin.
I've been involved with warfare in my church for awhile now and it's tough. It often seems like I might be the one that's wrong because there are so few who share my views. But after my devotionals and praying and being in the word, I understand what God want's from us and He continues to strengthen me and empower me for my ministry.
But the trick is how to be effective I believe. People DO NOT WANT TO BE CONFRONTED WITH THERE SIN!!!!! This is very very very hard for people. In my church, it seems, being a serious Christian is someone who has decided to join a small group or goes to a bible study or helps in a ministry, in other words anyone who does somthing more then just come to Sunday service. Peole are happy to be surface Christians and they're happy to be friendly and polite with you as long as you stay on the serface. But God forbid if you try to go deeper then that. So I've found that once you start to really talk about tough issues and relate it to God's wisdom and biblical truth, that's when people start to shy away. That's when I start to see the body getting smaller. When the real no kidding issues are brought to the serface and someone stands up and questions error and wants to bring the bible and God into it.
So what I'm trying to say here Neicey is, I understand what your going through. There are small battles that I have been fighting in my church as well some of which do involve the elders and pastors. Sometimes I can see that my efforts are effective but most times It doesn't. But I do constantly remind myself that again we are all fallible. Some times it seems that it's very easy to find error. I believe we should be careful and mindful of this. So I continue to try to lead a biblical ministry in my church but I try to do in a way that is effective. This can be very difficult and often tough.
Neicey I believe you are doing the right thing. We all have the tendency to take our eyes off the Mount and rest them on the Golden Calf. Amen? You're being sincere and your concerned in what is rightous and no one should fault you for that. Pray about it and lean on our Father to strengthen you. You might be suprised to find out what happens. I'll be praying for you as well and remember you might not see any visable fruit from your labor but that doesn't mean that you havn't been effective. You're standing up for what you think is right through your understanding of what scripture tells us. You are holding to scripture as being the final authority and that is what is important here.
I have a feeling though, that what is going to happen is that your pastor will here your arguments and consider your scripture references and will probibly reply with his own interpretation of those references. This is what I've found most of the elders and my pastors doing. They have taken a subjective approach to biblical interpretation rather then an objective one. Plus my pastor also brings in alot of secular pyschology and he is determined to follow a more liberal "Willowcreek" style format. This is what he was tought in seminary and this is what he is sticking with. So some times even relying on the bible to help in your efforts might not help. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
But keep in your faith Neicey, keep praying and keep the love of Jesus in your heart. Because on that long road to our final destination, we will often find ourselves saying, did not our hearts burn within us when he opened the scriptures up to us. This is how He keeps us and strengthens us, through His love and grace.
Dave, What a wonderful, kind, long, post, Thankyou so much. You touched on something, what will happen to my church, if this meeting does not bear fruit,how long will GOD allow this to go on, since GOD knows their are people who are upset over this situation. I don't know if I am going to be the one to say what needs to be said, I'm kind of wallflower in my ways, but GOD has things in control, no need for me to worry really, but I do.
I need a little more help, if you don't mind <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grovel.gif" alt="" />
let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed [6] in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
A gentile would be someone not in GODs family, but how am I to see him as a (tax collector)what is the full meaning of these 2 words ?
20 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
I take this as, when I pray GOD hears and will see all that goes on in the meeting, is this what the words ( among them)is to mean ?
