The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum More Sticky Issues of Women in the Church

But that’s part of the problem. Many congregations no longer use hymns to teach and admonish. So, naturally, they have no objections to female singers. The hymns they sing are merely mood altering entertainment.

Churches that stick to bible texts have the right idea. Hymns must teach the sacred word. And that is an exercise of the authority of the gospel.

Let's take it to it's end. If singing is instruction and teaching, women cannot sing, period. Is this your belief?

Second; I know I seem abrupt at times, but I am not believing that scripture equivocates singing with teaching. Nobody has offered a single scripture that claims such.


God bless,

william

John,

Your confusion is 100% due to a typo on my part! What I initially wrote, and which has since been corrected, thanks to you for bringing this to my attention, "I believe that the Elders have any authority to delegate their authority to anyone who cannot qualify, should be "I believe that the Elders do not have any authority to delegate their authority to anyone who cannot qualify".

On this one, and let's see if I can type my actual thoughts correctly , I believe that the collecting of the tithes and offerings is a specific task which belongs to the Deacons, which is an ordained office of the Church and of which only men may serve. Contrary to what John Piper thinks and others which hold to similar positions concerning the office of Deacon, the Scripture is VERY clear that only men may serve as Deacons and that it IS an office which has authority; e.g., the determination on how to distribute the Lord's money to those who are in need, etc. It is very unfortunate, as of late, that the office of Deacon is often looked upon as inferior to that of Elder and in the case of many, not even recognized as an "office" in the Church, but rather one akin to a Social Worker made up of willing volunteers, etc.

Does that help?

In His Grace,

Sorry, but you aren't going to get around me that easy! What I asked you to do was to prove by sound exegesis that Col 3:16 (I added Eph 5:19) applies to corporate worship! What you are trying to do, and miserably I might add, is to assume that it does and then admit that it can be applied beyond corporate worship. No...... sorry! eh eh! Again, can you show exegetically that either/both of those texts are specifically addressing the behaviour of the saints within corporate worship?

Once again, you are assuming without evidence that "singing solo" is equal to "authoritative teaching"; i.e., that which the Lord has ordained to men and upon that basis reject it. You have yet to prove that singing is an ordained and primary means of teaching the Church. And if you could prove it is, then it would of necessity, prohibit women from participating in all forms of singing where men are present.

You've dug quite a deep hole for yourself here. But, I'm certainly willing to allow you to pull yourself out, if you can.

Henry,

Excuse me for butting in here, but I'd like to respond to your "devil's advocacy" question too.

I think you answered your own question from the very phrasing of it, IMHO. Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are (at least they should be) summaries of biblical truth, which when sung are actually a melodious confession of the singer with the primary intent being to worship God, either corporately and/or individually. That songs can "instruct" is not due to the singing of them, but rather it is inherent in the the fact that they reflect biblical truth, whether they are sung or not. They are instructive because they are words which can be read. The singing of the words is simply voicing one's assent to those truths which they represent. Since I believe that singing is primarily an expression of worship, "in spirit and truth", then it is non-restrictive as to who may sing.

As poor William has asked in several of his replies, to which speratus nor anyone else has seen fit to answer, where in Scripture does it say that singing of Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs is equivalent to "authoritative teaching" of which only those ordained of God and/or men may do?

In His Grace,

pilgrim,

Any Christian women can get on her soap box and preach Christ in a public park. She may also sing appropriate hymns if she cares to.

What she can not do is preach, teach, or sing in the church. Neither can a man unless he has been called by God to be an overseer or steward of the mysteries. 1 Cor. 4:1; Acts 20:28.

I have proven that hymn singing is teaching. Col. 3:16. You seem to distinguish between authoritative teaching and other forms of teaching. Where in scripture does it say that women can teach the overseer in the church?

Now only ordained men may sing? Neither of those passages say such.


God bless,

william

There is no disputing that Paul directs believers to: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto God.". But for the last time, you have not established that this injunction pertains specifically to corporate worship. There is no mention that ONLY men should "admonish one another". Rather it is a universal statement which applies to ALL believers and the context would indicate that he is speaking about daily living and NOT formal/corporate worship. If you cannot establish that Col 3:16 and/or Eph 5:19 is primarily an instruction for formal worship, then your argument is null.

Further, if you are wanting to eisogete these passages by introducing an element that doesn't exist, then again, you have yet another problem which is that if ONLY ordained men can "admonish, sing, teach, etc.", then this passage would apply only to Elders/Bishops. Where do you find that in either of those texts?

Where you get the idea that I hold that women can teach the overseer in the church is beyond me?? Can you point to where I even hinted of such a thing? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Well, if I were Speratus, I would state that singing a song together with the congregation, i.e. corporately, is different then getting up in front of everybody and singing the song to them. However, for myself, your argument is satisfactory.

Yes, no one denies singing is teaching if the song has comprehensible words. But, I am curious about how far down this slippery path y'all wish to go. If it is alright for a woman to get up in front of the congregation to sing a Psalm, is it also alright for her to:

1. Read a Psalm?
2. Sing a hymn composed by Martin Luther on a psalm text?
3. Read a sermon written by John Calvin on a psalm text?
4. Sing her own hymn on a psalm text?
5. Read her own sermon on a psalm text?

I have some questions for you. Since this seems to be your preferred method of communicating truths, I thought maybe we could reach you this way.

1) When can we expect something besides a few proof texts?

2) When can we expect anything resembling exegetical explanations?

3) When can we expect for you to actually overcome the dilemmas you create instead of simply posting further proof texts?


God bless,

william

averagefellar,

Would you please answer my questions first?

Repeat it, please. However, then you must answer mine. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />


God bless,

william

If it is alright for a woman to get up in front of the congregation to sing a Psalm, is it also alright for her to:

1. Read a Psalm?
2. Sing a hymn composed by Martin Luther on a psalm text?
3. Read a sermon written by John Calvin on a psalm text?
4. Sing her own hymn on a psalm text?
5. Read her own sermon on a psalm text?

Oh, we did cover this. The dilemma is that you falsely associate singing with the authority of teaching. Pilgrim and I have both shown your proof texts to be false and your logic to be faulty.


God bless,

william