The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Justification and the Effectual Call

Pilgrim,

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

Are not the above justified even without faith?

Thanks Bill

The effectual call is not the same as the general call. We can start a new thread if you so desire. If that was the case then one would believe in Gospel Regeneration which is erroneous.



Then faith becomes a condition. I do nto believe you can have it both ways. The elect are justified prior to any faith on their part. The faith is the gift of God that lays hold of the Christ. Believing is a fruit Pilgrim. Once the Holy Spirit regenerates the Elect, they do not plead their faith in Christ in order to come to Him. We come as helpless beggars. Knowing nothing but our need for a savior.


Regeneration, new birth, effectual calling, and irresistible grace are synonymous theological terms referring to the work of the Holy Spirit in the radical transformation of the soul. Regeneration is the personal application of the blood of Christ to the "inner man" so that the soul is cleansed, really and individually, from sin: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done' but according to His mercy He saved us by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5). The "new man" is thus created "in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24), for sin has been washed away. The interesting nugget in Titus which I recently noticed says we are saved by regeneration. And again Paul uses the same application in 1 Tim 2:9. This is something new I never noticed before.


I do not believe this is Classic Calvinism as you call it. This makes faith a work and the cause of justification. Again Abraham was justified in Genesis 12 when He was called. If faith is a gift of God, how can it count towrds our justification? If He gives is, why would He wait for us to show our faith before justifying us. The elect are justifed by faith, by grace, not because of faith, you know this.

I will comment on sanctification in another thread also. Pilgrim, I enjoy this tremendously and praise God I ahve been led here.


Joe

Yes. I do not know why it was not included in the post. I thought I put the link in there. Thanks for clarifying that J E. W E Best does a fantastic job in that article. I enjoy his works tremendously.

How do you include the link in a post liek you did?

Joe

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" /> Question found
Berkhof pg.518 a.(4)

I have always held that ALL are justified by faith, regardless of age or mental capacity. Just because an embryo is incapable of expressing faith as does an adult doesn't is no hindrance. Why? Because faith is the fruit of regeneration, wrought by the Holy Spirit and resides in one's "heart/soul". It is the soul that reaches out to Christ and not the body, thus God is perfectly capable of drawing EVERY one of His elect children to Himself and uniting them to Christ. Perhaps that is too brief a statement, but I am hoping that it is sufficient. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

1) Read the 3 sections recommended to you in your "Welcome" PM (Private Message)
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2) Read the answer to the same question asked in the "HELP Forum" here: Executable links

My concern over W.E. Best's material is that it is not always correct. There use to be a very good critique of his work on-line, however I have been unable to locate it for you to read (maybe someone else has the link). Anyway some of his material is ok, but other parts of it will get you into error and much controversy here....

That is correct. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />

Error! The ordo salutis found in Scripture is election, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, sanctification, and glorification (of course this may be expanded). God gives an effectual call (in His time) to all He has elected. The Holy Spirit thus regenerates and from this new creation faith and repentance flow forth. Then we are justified, etc. Have you read any of these articles; [1], [2]?

While all these have to do with one’s union in Christ, they are not synonymous, but actually very distinctive terms. You have yet to give us dictionary definitions of the terms expressed. Do you have a systematic theology like Berkhof’s available to read?

Berkhof is hard to beat for an answer to you here. In the earlier portions of the OT there is but little in the line of abstract statement respecting the way of salvation. The essence of the religion of the patriarchs is exhibited to us in action. The promise of God is in the foreground, and the case of Abraham is designed to set forth the idea that the proper response to it is that of faith.

Berkhof summarizes saying, Scriptures says that we are justified dia pisteos, ek pisteos, or pistei (dative), Rom 3:25-30; 5:1; Gal 2:16; Phil 3:9. The preposition dia stresses the fact that faith is the instrument by which we appropriate Christ and His righteousness. The preposition ek indicates that faith logically precedes our personal justification, so that this, as it were, originates in faith. The dative is used in an instrumental sense. Scripture never says that we are justified dia ten pistin, on account of faith. This means that faith is never represented as the ground of our justification.

I agree. But I find him very interesting to read and contimplate. Anyway, I have the blood of a nonconformist flowing through my veins, so to challenge traditional understanding is something I enjoy. In fact if you follow suit of your signature, Reformed and always Reforming, One is led to do this. We cannot rest in the teachings of 500 years ago. Just like God used Luther to confront popery, we must be led by His Spirit to a deeper understanding and if the Spirit leads one to reform previous teachings, one must not resist.

Joe k,

You said:

Is it slightly presumptuous to suppose that you are MORE Spirit-led than those godly teachers of 500 years ago, even to the present? Has He left us all to misunderstand Scripture from then till now, until you appeared? I think I would rather rely on the great teachers and godly men of the past to interpret, unless you can somehow prove them wrong Scripturally. Please let us see some exegesis! Keep in mind the Spirit does not speak or lead outside of the Word!

In His Hands,

Ruth

It is Reformed and always Reforming, not Reformed and always Deforming. Please refer to Ruth's post. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

That is a slam JE. But funny none the les. I am thick skinned.

Ruth I NEVER mentioned my spiritual superiority. According to your logic, we should have stayed with Ignatous, tertullian, etc. etc. TO admit that the divines of past have exhausted the Godhead is presumptious on your part. Were they infallable? I agree we learn from those divines who have gone before us. But to think that God cannot use anyone after the WCF was written is just plain wrong. What you end up with is a faith by proxy. You begin to believe in a belief. That said, let us continue this thread and edify each other. For I NEVER put myself higher than anyone.

Did God leave those in the dark for 1500 years? I believe He did, This is the great apostacy that Paul warned about. But the remnant always remains. He will always have the men who do not bow to Baal. Your challenge is unfounded. You seem perturbed that I present a dialogue with scriptural support and historical support.

Faith is never the cause of God justifying a person. Regardless what any creed or confession says, it is wrong. God gives faith because we are justified by Him and the imputed righteousness of Christ. Then it does become our faith, and we believe. But the Elect, who have been given to Christ in eternity Have eternally been justified in Christ.

You assume I stand alone in this belief. Kuyper, Gill, Philpot, Twisse are just a few who congfessed this


Joe

NO ONE here has said that "faith is the cause of God justifying a person"!! Be advised, the ground here is not conducive to planting strawmen. The Scriptures, men throughout history who have held to its truth and the majority of us here, particular those of us who have been willing to engage you in this thread hold tenaciously to "Sola Fide". If you don't know what that means, then you should spend some quality time reading through the various articles found here: Sola Fide - The Doctrine of Justification. Faith is the "vehicle" by which a sinner apprehends Christ whose righteousness is then imputed to him. Here it is again from the inspired record:

Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Romans 4:9-12 "Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision; that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision."

Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Galatians 3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness."

Galatians 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

Secondly, you have yet to provide even one solitary passage which would teach that sinners are justified in eternity and more, that this nullifies all the passages and many more that clearly show that justification is apprehended by and at the time of one's believing upon Christ. Can you present a case from Scripture in your defense?

In His Grace,

Joe K, we desire for you to go forward in the faith and not backward to the sometimes incorrect teachings of W.E. Best and others. To be Reformed and Always be Reforming does not mean you totally reject the teachings of the past (otherwise one would not be Reformed <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />). Moreover, this would be called heresy, because some of what our earlier fathers taught was correct and to desert from it would be to desert the faith once delivered to the saints. Individuals such as Calvin and others (Augustine, WCF, etc) had a lot of good things to say and if one is wise they will study these things out and then make progression from there. Reformed and Always Reforming is like saying from Truth to Truth.

Glad you liked the joke. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />