|
Posts: 146
Joined: August 2021
|
|
|
|
Forums31
Topics8,349
Posts56,545
Members992
| |
Most Online2,383
Jan 12th, 2026
|
|
|
#25924
Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:04 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Newbie
|
OP
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41 |
What is Salvation?
How is it accomplished?
Does God need us to defend Him?
Does the written Word of God to the Jews first and then to us supercede His direct intervention and contact with us?
Does the written Word of God ensure that God will never communicate any other way? The answer to the latter question provides for me many other questions, however one main one is how would these other contact from God be confirmed? and my logical conclusion would be that it would be confirmed within the established Word of God.
What is the fate of all those living in lands where the Bible is not available in the native language of those lands? Did God contact these persons and make known to them His plan of Salvation or have every one in these regions been lost to the enemy of our souls and only through modern day steps will they now be able to be saved? Is this plausible? that God who Loved the world so much with an Everlasting Love, would hinge the salvation of a large percentage of these same inhabitants of the world on the will and Intellect of a fewer number of persons just as imperfect as the rest? Was not Christ' death, burial and subsequent resurrection enough to give Salvation to all men? Was it not Christ speaking in John 6:41-51 who quoted from Jeremiah 31:34 explaining how knowledge of God will come to us?
There are many who believe about the ceasing of direct relating to God by the Living Holy Spirit of God, in this belief the premise is that the Direct contact of the Holy Spirit was only for the time of the Apostles, that once the written Word was complete God will never again speak to mankind, until judgement.
I do not subscribe to this especially noting the fact that language as the primary mean of disceminating inforamtion is fundamentally flawed especially considering the limits of one language in translation to another. I speak English as English language is the accepted spoken and written language of my country and our English is derived from the UK. Almost every one else on this forum speak and write US English and the comparison can be further broken down to use of words and the differing meanings and context from social group to social group. Without the direct intervention of the Holy SPirit of God (as promised by God through Peter on the day of Pentecost) to "all who a far off", understanding of these scriptures translated from Hebrew, Chaldean and Greek would be impossible. As I say I am not a theologist but I am one who has received the Grace of God.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 416
Addict
|
|
Addict
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 416 |
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Persnickety Presbyterian  |
Persnickety Presbyterian Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040 |
Delivered said:
What is Salvation? Salvation is deliverance from the condemnation of the Law, the wrath of God which should fall on us for our sinfulness: "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the Law could not do, weak at it was through the flesh, God [did]: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and [as an offering] for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1–4).
It is accomplished through the shed blood of Christ, who took upon Himself the sins of the elect, so that they will believe in Him and confess Him, resulting in their salvation:
"For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] trough Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life" (Rom. 5:6–10).
"For Moses writes that the man who pactices the righteousness that it based on the law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: 'Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down), or "'Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).' But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart'—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, 'Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.' For there it no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for 'Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved'" (Rom. 10:5–13).
"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging in the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Eph. 2:1–10).
Does God need us to defend Him?
God works through us to defend His doctrine:
". . . but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always [being] ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account of the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence" (I Pet. 3:15).
"[We are] destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up again the knowledge of God, and [we are] taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete" (II Cor. 10:5–6).
"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" (Gal. 1:8).
"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but [wanting] to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teaches in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths" (II Tim. 4:1–4).
Does the written Word of God to the Jews first and then to us supercede His direct intervention and contact with us? Does the written Word of God ensure that God will never communicate any other way? The answer to the latter question provides for me many other questions, however one main one is how would these other contact from God be confirmed? and my logical conclusion would be that it would be confirmed within the established Word of God.
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" (II Tim. 3:16–17).
What is the fate of all those living in lands where the Bible is not available in the native language of those lands?
They are all alike under the wrath of God, for they have all alike turned aside:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:18–20).
"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written,
'There is none righteous, not even one;
'There is none who understands,
'There is none who seeks for God;
'All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
'There is none who does good,
'There is not even one.
'Their throat is an open grave,
'With their tongues they keep deceiving,
'The poison of asps is under their lips;
'Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;
'Their feet are swift to shed blood,
'Destruction and misery are in their paths,
'And the path of peace the have not known.
'There is no fear of God before their eyes.'
"Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:9–20).
Did God contact these persons and make known to them His plan of Salvation or have every one in these regions been lost to the enemy of our souls and only through modern day steps will they now be able to be saved?
God saves men through the preaching of the Gospel:
"How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!'
"However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed our report?' So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Rom. 10:14–17).
Is this plausible? that God who Loved the world so much with an Everlasting Love, would hinge the salvation of a large percentage of these same inhabitants of the world on the will and Intellect of a fewer number of persons just as imperfect as the rest? Was not Christ' death, burial and subsequent resurrection enough to give Salvation to all men? Was it not Christ speaking in John 6:41-51 who quoted from Jeremiah 31:34 explaining how knowledge of God will come to us?
Christ did not come to die for every man, but only for the sheep of God, the world of the elect apart from the world of the reprobate, whom God has chosen from before the foundation of the world:
"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. . . . I am the good shepherd; I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold [i.e., the Gentiles who are outside the fold of the Jews]; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd. . . . But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are One" (John 10:11, 14–16, 26–30).
"Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved" (Eph. 1:3–6).
"And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived [twins] by one man, our father Isaac; for though [the twins] were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to [His] choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'
"What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.' So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
"You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if [literally, "But" or "However"] God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, [even] us, whom He also called, not from among the Jews only, but also from among the Gentiles" (Rom. 9:10–24).
There are many who believe about the ceasing of direct relating to God by the Living Holy Spirit of God, in this belief the premise is that the Direct contact of the Holy Spirit was only for the time of the Apostles, that once the written Word was complete God will never again speak to mankind, until judgement.
We do not deny the direct relation of God to His children by the Holy Spirit. What we deny is that there is anything more to be revealed until Judgement Day. All we have need of until then is the word of God in Scripture, which is whole and complete, and is the only means by which the Spirit communicates with us today. Prophecy and tongues and special knowledge have ceased; they were only necessary until the foundation had been laid:
"Love never fails; but if [there are gifts of] prophecy, they will be done away; if [there are] tongues, they will cease; if [there is revelatory] knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in par, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully knonw. But now faith, hope, ove, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love" (I Cor. 13:8–13).
I do not subscribe to this especially noting the fact that language as the primary mean of disceminating inforamtion is fundamentally flawed especially considering the limits of one language in translation to another. I speak English as English language is the accepted spoken and written language of my country and our English is derived from the UK. Almost every one else on this forum speak and write US English and the comparison can be further broken down to use of words and the differing meanings and context from social group to social group. Without the direct intervention of the Holy SPirit of God (as promised by God through Peter on the day of Pentecost) to "all who a far off", understanding of these scriptures translated from Hebrew, Chaldean and Greek would be impossible. As I say I am not a theologist but I am one who has received the Grace of God.
The direct intervention of the Spirit is indeed required, not to translate words, but to renew our hearts so that the Word spoken may be received:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, [even] to those who believe in His name, who were [i.e., had already been] born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12–13).
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [literally, "from above"] he cannont see the kingdom of God.'
"Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, "You must be born again." The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so it everyone who is born of the Spirit'" (John 1:3–8).
"For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile to toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. Bu if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in tyou, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" (Rom. 8:5–11).
"For to us God revealed [them] through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the [thoughts] of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the [thoughts] of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual [thoughts] with spiritual [words].
"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ" (I Cor. 2:10–16).
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Newbie
|
|
OP
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41 |
Dear CovenantInBlood
So let me get this straight you are saying, or your belief is that a person who does not speak or read Hebrew, Chaldean, Greek or English is already unrighteous as all have sinned and so they deserve to be condemned to hell, as we all do.
While those of us who speak English had King James (sent by God for us exclusively) to translate the Bible for us, that we are specially singled out by God to hear from him as, "His Sheep hears his voice", and He just said all the world but did not mean it.
You are also saying that when the Bible says in John 3:16 that God so loved the world he was only referring to the few who are able to read and understand the English Language, and you dont think that this belief is just a little bit pretentious and bordering on the outer limits of Gods' plan for the many persons who were a part of the group spoken of in Acts 2:39, John 3:16, and that number so great that no man could number in Revelations 7:9 "After that I beheld and lo a Great Multitude which no man could number, of All Nations, and Kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes and ...." These Nations must all speak English or the fact that there are still many more languages left to be translated for the Bible then this would mean that owing to the tremendous time and editing period for this type of translation, Christ must not be coming just yet, or when the Bible said all Nations it really meant all the Western Nations!
I believe in predestination, the bible states it clearly. I believe that God alone knows all who are saved, He saved them, it was His plan and He is not a man that He should lie.
The bible does not state however the precise time when the prophecy would fail or that it would be forever. Or whether it was a particular set of prophecy that failed. It also did not state a precise time when the Tongues would cease nor did it say that this was a final act, and there would be no more tongues. So I cannot accept these scriptures as proof that your belief is sound.
You absolutely cannot tell an Omnipotent being that because you put one meaning to His inspired Words that it means that He must stick to your beliefs. That is the thing with God, He is God and He does what He wants without our permission. Our finite minds cannot comprehend His infinite thoughts. Our imperfection cannot comprehend His perfect will. He is not restrained or contained by our personal prejudices whether they are hidden prejudices or pronounced ones.
He does continue to heal persons inspite of our theologies stating that which is contrary. He does continue to speak to persons, move upon their heart and draw them unto Himself as He will. There is a popular club that I attended often before I entered my walk with the Lord Jesus, and one night during the musical performance of an admitted cult member, someone in the audience felt Gods' presence and heard His call and converted to Christianity.
There are countless other stories of persons hearing directly from God and always these meetings were confirmed with two or more other persons separate from the incident and with a bible verse.
Fortunate for those who exist outside of the Bible belt, Gods' plan includes them as well. He does not think like us and His plan is for all the world. He does know who will answer His call because He is God of All creation. But the promise of God is to all even those who are a far off. Though all may of us may not accept this free gift as Pual says. All will hear.
Once again I asked the questions to see where we were in terms of whether we were on the same page or not and we are not. It does not mean that I will condemn you to hell for your beliefs, or call you an heretic, as I can only pray that we all come into the perspicacity required to teach each other and those needing to hear from us, so that we can be that spotless Church that He is returning for soon.
You Wrote:
The direct intervention of the Spirit is indeed required, not to translate words, but to renew our hearts so that the Word spoken may be received:
and then you quoted from the Bible:
"For to us God revealed [them] through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the [thoughts] of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the [thoughts] of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual [thoughts] with spiritual [words].
and you must have missed 1 John 2:27
I know that by nature we seem to like being a part of an elite group and it somehow strokes our inner selfish self but I suggest that we look to God and pray for the intervention of the Holy Spirit of God so that we can begin to practice the real Christ-like living that the Bible speaks of. You know letting our Lights shine in this world by following His examples. Being in constant dialogue with God so that we may know day by day hour by hour who He leads us to assist, to speak to, to deliver. How can you help those around you to see the plan of God as outlined by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and leave the deep theological concepts to be either established or removed by God.
Last edited by Delivered; Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:00 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 193
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 193 |
So let me get this straight you are saying, or your belief is that a person who does not speak or read Hebrew, Chaldean, Greek or English is already unrighteous as all have sinned and so they deserve to be condemned to hell, as we all do.
So let me get this straight you are saying, or your belief is that a person who does not speak or read Hebrew, Chaldean, Greek or English is already unrighteous as all have sinned and so they deserve to be condemned to hell, as we all do.
While those of us who speak English had King James (sent by God for us exclusively) to translate the Bible for us, that we are specially singled out by God to hear from him as, "His Sheep hears his voice", and He just said all the world but did not mean it. Delivered, I understand you are not a "theologist," but NOWHERE does Kyle come anywhere within a hundred miles of saying, much less suggesting this. For all your professed open-mindedness and tolerance, you are and have been contentious and highly judgmental in almost every one of your remarks since you signed on. And in this case your distortion is so incredible it is hard for me not to believe it is deliberate. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />
![[Linked Image]](http://www.good-music-guide.com/images/monogram.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Persnickety Presbyterian |
Persnickety Presbyterian Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040 |
Delivered said:
So let me get this straight you are saying, or your belief is that a person who does not speak or read Hebrew, Chaldean, Greek or English is already unrighteous as all have sinned and so they deserve to be condemned to hell, as we all do. Absolutely not. How did you come up with that? What I'm saying—in fact, what the Bible itself says—is that ALL men are unrighteous sinners. It doesn't matter whether you speak Hebrew, Chaldean, Greek, English, German, Dutch, Italian, Spanish, Mandarin, Cantonese, Tagalog, Hindi, Tibetan, Swahili, Arabic, or anything else: we're all born dead in our sins, and so we all deserve to go to hell. While those of us who speak English had King James (sent by God for us exclusively) to translate the Bible for us, that we are specially singled out by God to hear from him as, "His Sheep hears his voice", and He just said all the world but did not mean it. Huh? I didn't even used the King James Vesion in my post, I used the New American Standard Bible. (Besides, King James didn't translate anything, he simply authorized a particular translation to be made.) We as English speakers are not especially singled out by God. Anyone who hears and receives the Word of God in ANY language is chosen by God. People from every tribe, tongue, and nation are elect. That doesn't mean, however, that every single individual person is elect, however, as is clear from Rom. 9—obviously, Esau was not elect, nor was Pharaoh. In fact, they were "vessels of wrath prepared fro destruction." You are also saying that when the Bible says in John 3:16 that God so loved the world he was only referring to the few who are able to read and understand the English Language, and you dont think that this belief is just a little bit pretentious and bordering on the outer limits of Gods' plan for the many persons who were a part of the group spoken of in Acts 2:39, John 3:16, and that number so great that no man could number in Revelations 7:9 "After that I beheld and lo a Great Multitude which no man could number, of All Nations, and Kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes and ...." These Nations must all speak English or the fact that there are still many more languages left to be translated for the Bible then this would mean that owing to the tremendous time and editing period for this type of translation, Christ must not be coming just yet, or when the Bible said all Nations it really meant all the Western Nations! No, no, no, and again I say, NO! You really should not be put so many words in my mouth. In John 3:16, the "world" referred to is the world of the elect, those who have been set apart from the rest of the world and appointed to eternal life (cf. Acts 13:48: "and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed"). They are not from the Jews only, but from every nation of the world—and they certainly don't have to speak English. The Word of God may be translated into any language, and special miracles by the Holy Spirit are not necessary for that. No one is required to read English, Hebrew, Chaldean, or Greek to comprehend and receive the Gospel. What is required is that the Holy Spirit soften our hearts so that we may receive the Gospel we hear—in whatever language we know. I believe in predestination, the bible states it clearly. I believe that God alone knows all who are saved, He saved them, it was His plan and He is not a man that He should lie.
The bible does not state however the precise time when the prophecy would fail or that it would be forever. Or whether it was a particular set of prophecy that failed. It also did not state a precise time when the Tongues would cease nor did it say that this was a final act, and there would be no more tongues. So I cannot accept these scriptures to as proof that your belief is sound. The biblical gift of tongues was a sign that the New Covenant would include people from every nation. It was especially important for the Jews, so that they did not try to force Gentiles to become Jews or vainly think that Christ's blood was shed for Jews alone—and so that they would also see that God had judged the Jewish nation for her disobedience and the Old Covenant would be done away. Once the Old Covenant had failed and the Bible had been completed at the close of the Apostolic Era at the end of the 1st Century A.D., then tongues and prophecy and revelatory knowledge ceased. They were not so that people could go into the rest of the world and speak languages they didn't understand so that they wouldn't have to translate anything! You absolutely cannot tell an Omnipotent being that because you put one meaning to His inspired Words that it means that He must stick to your beliefs. That is the thing with God, He is God and He does what He wants without your permission. Our finite minds cannot comprehend His infinite thoughts. Our imperfection cannot comprehend His perfect will. He is not restarained or contained by our personal prejudices whether they are hidden prejudices or pronounced ones. The old "God-in-a-box" trick, eh? Well, guess what? YOUR understanding of the text REQUIRES that God continue to give the charismatic gifts. You are putting God in a box and requiring that He continue to do such-and-such or else His Gospel won't be spread! Would you dare say that God still expects us to eat kosher or to sacrifice animal? It's too bad that God Himself has shown in His Scripture that we need no longer look for these signs, because we have His Scripture completely available to us. He does continue to heal persons inspite of our theologies stating that which is contrary. He does continue to speak to persons, move upon their heart and draw them unto Himself as He will. I never claimed otherwise! God does indeed heal people and draw them to Himself. However, He does not use prophecy, tongues, or revelatory knowledge to do so anymore: He uses the preaching of His complete Word in Scripture. There is a popular club that I attended often before I entered my walk with the Lord Jesus, and one night during the musical performance of an admitted cult member, someone in the audience felt Gods' presence and heard His call and converted to Christianity.
There are countless other stories of persons hearing directly from God and always these meetings were confirmed with two or more other persons separate from the incident and with a bible verse. If they say they heard any audible voice from God, then they are liars. If they were converted apart from the conviction of sin, they were not truly converted. Fortunate for those who exist outside of the Bible belt, Gods' plan includes them as well. He does not think like us and His plan is for all the world. He does know who will answer His call because He is God of All creation. He decided before the universe was created whom He would choose to be born of the Spirit, people from all the nations of the world, and those who are born of the Spirit alone can answer His call. But He did not choose every single person! Once again I asked the questions to see where we were in terms of whether we were on the same page or not and we are not. It does not mean that I will condemn you to hell for your beliefs, or call you an heretic, as I can only pray that we all come into the perspicacity required to teach each other and those needing to hear from us, so that we can be that spotless Church that He is returning for soon. Well, sir, I thank God His Scriptures are perspicuous and that I don't need to understand Hebrew or Chaldean or Greek to read them. Praise God He has made it possible to translate the original languages into every language in the world.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Newbie
|
|
OP
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41 |
My intention was not to attack Kyle but to introduce the possibility that our theology might not come across in the way we perceive it to be. The conversation started with the Question, "If I knew that Tommy Tenney was an Heretic?" I believe that we should not condemn persons for their beliefs and that we should be cognisant of the fact that when our beliefs seek to exclude a great number of individuals and it seems that we back this up with scripture and pass it off as facts rather than beliefs, that others percieve it to be an attack on their belief. When in fact the scriptures have other questions, not questioning the scriptures themselves but our interpretation of these scriptures and that is what I was trying to communicate thinking that I understood Kyles explanation of his theological views. I know that there is a certain degree of skepticism towards the Churches who believe that the gifts of the spirit are still at work. I am from a Church that has been traditionally a part of the group that believes what Kyle stated for the most part. However certain miraculous happenings have had them questioning and accepting these gifts (gifts of the Spirit)in certain respects. My concern is what about the countless many before who realised the existence of these gisfts and were dealt with in a hurtful manner, some asked to leave the Church because they would not lie and renounce what they experienced. Maybe it is a voice telling them that their child would live even when doctors confirm that the child had in fact died, the child now lives and is healthy. BUT HAVING TO KEEP SUCH A THING QUEIT. There are cases where persons are praying alone and suddenly are overcome by a presence and strange languages come from their lips and they go on to read a particular scripture and confirms what is translated. But say nothing of these things because the theology says that such things do not exist anymore. But the Bible says no such thing. How do you explain these things? I am just a little worn down by constantly feeling as though I will never be able to have a civil (and by civil I mean a discussion in which I dont have to be offended by what you say and you dont feel attacked when I repeat what I think you mean by what you say). I never once said that I condemned anyone. I do admit that I get a little caught up in things of this nature owing to years of being docile about standing up for others and what I believe without being malicious. I am sorry that I ended up doing what I did not intend to, I said that I was not good at communication and maybe I should refrain from further postings. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />Once again I apologise.
Last edited by Delivered; Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:53 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Newbie
|
|
OP
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41 |
Once more Kyle.
I am not saying that He(God) will save everyone, the scriptures do not say this. I am saying that all will get the opportunity to hear and of all those hearing the predestined will accept and those who are not wont.
How will this opportunity arise when they have not gotten the opportunity to hear the gospel in their own language, or the opportunity to read the Bible in their language. We all agree of the Bible's importance to the Christian walk.
I could say also that your idea, that, God cannot and will not speak to anyone audibly now is placing him in a box also but I do not think it is your intention to do this as it is not my intention. We disagree on this point and we can leave it at that.
I do not believe that the scriptures say that the Holy Spirit has stopped communicating to men directly. In the instance of the voice being heard telling of God's Will audible to the hearer only, this to me is evidence that the Holy Spirit still speaks to men whether by strong impression or a voice (I believe).
I know that you did not quote from the King James version, and I know that he never did the actual work himself. This is the version that I have and I know that many new versions exist. At my church both the King James version, and the New International Version is used. These new Bibles are expensive and many opt to stay with the version that they feel more confortable reading.
I said King James version to make the point.
Last edited by Delivered; Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:33 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 416
Addict
|
|
Addict
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 416 |
Delivered says:
You absolutely cannot tell an Omnipotent being that because you put one meaning to His inspired Words that it means that He must stick to your beliefs. That is the thing with God, He is God and He does what He wants without our permission. Our finite minds cannot comprehend His infinite thoughts. Our imperfection cannot comprehend His perfect will. He is not restrained or contained by our personal prejudices whether they are hidden prejudices or pronounced ones.
He does continue to heal persons inspite of our theologies stating that which is contrary. He does continue to speak to persons, move upon their heart and draw them unto Himself as He will. There is a popular club that I attended often before I entered my walk with the Lord Jesus, and one night during the musical performance of an admitted cult member, someone in the audience felt Gods' presence and heard His call and converted to Christianity. Reformed theology holds that God can be known, but that it is impossible for man to have a knowledge of Him that is exhaustive and perfect in every way. To have such a knowledge of God would be equivalent to comprehending Him, and this is entirely out of the question: "Finitum non possit capere infinitum." Furthermore, man cannot give a definition of God in the proper sense of the word, but only a partial description. A logical definition is impossible, because God cannot be subsumed under some higher genus. At the same time it is maintained that man can obtain a knowledge of God that is perfectly adequate for the realization of the divine purpose in the life of man. However, true knowledge of God can be acquired only from the divine self-revelation, and only by the relation in which man is conscious of the absolute greatness and majesty of God as the supreme Being, and of his own utter insignificance and subjection to the High and Holy One. And if this is true, it follows that religion presupposes the knowledge of God in man. If man were left absolutely in the dark respecting the being of God, it would be impossible for him to assume a religious attitude. There could be no reverence, no piety, no fear of God, no worshipful service.
Louis Berkhof's "Sytematic Theology" 6. Why is diligent use of the outward means of grace necessary if we are to escape God's wrath and curse for our sin? God has chosen to appoint these outward means of grace (the Word, the sacraments, and prayer) as instruments by which the benefits of Christ's saving work are communicated to us. These means of themselves cannot save us; it is only Christ that can save us; but he makes use of these appointed means. Therefore if we would have Christ and make sure of an interest in him, we must be diligent in our use of the appointed means. The false tendency called "mysticism" despises and neglects the use of these outward means of grace, and is therefore contrary to the Scriptures and spiritually dangerous. Of course God could have made a plan to save sinners without the use of outward means of grace; but he has not chosen to do so, and so we must avail ourselves of the means which God has provided.
6. Why must the Bible be translated into modern languages? The Old Testament was written in Hebrew language, which at the time of the writing was the common language of the covenant people of God; and the New Testament was written in Greek, which at the time of the writing was the language most widely known in the Roman world. Today these languages are known only to the comparatively few who have made a special effort to learn them. The Bible is a message for all mankind, and the gospel which it contains is to be proclaimed to all nations. The Great Commission cannot be carried out adequately without translating the Bible into the various languages of the world. This work of Scripture translation has been going on since very early times, but by far the greatest progress has been made during the past 100 years. Today the Word of God, in whole or in part, speaks to men in more then 1,000 languages and dialects.
1. Why will the heathen, who have never heard the gospel, be condemned at the Judgment Day? Not because of failure to believe in Christ, but simply because of their sins. Rom 2:12
5. Is it not unfair for God to condemn those who have never heard the gospel? If God owed salvation, or "a chance for salvation." to all human beings, then it would be unjust to condemn those who have never heard the gospel. But God does not owe any such thing to anyone. He is under no obligation to provide salvation, or an offer of salvation, to anyone at all. Therefore no injustice is involved in his saving some and passing others by.
7. What hope is there for the salvation of the heathen? The gospel of Christ, published throughout the whole world by missionaries, is the message of salvation full and free to everyone who believes.
Commentary of the WLC by Johannes Vos. I believe that all this is very biblical. This is what I understand to be true through my knowledge of the bible. It's going to take more then a drugged induced club hoppers' testimony of "hearing God" to convince me otherwise. Sorry, but the "reformed faith" is not just Kyle's theology. Orthodoxed reformed theology happens to have been and is the faith of millions of Christians. Dave.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,579
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,579 |
How will this opportunity arise when they have not gotten the opportunity to hear the gospel in their own language, or the opportunity to read the Bible in their language. We all agree of the Bible's importance to the Christian walk. The real question to ask is why God saves anyone. It's not like God is lonely and needs us. It's by God's sheer unconditional mercy and love that anyone is saved. I do not believe that the scriptures say that the Holy Spirit has stopped communicating to men directly. In the instance of the voice being heard telling of God's Will audible to the hearer only, this to me is evidence that the Holy Spirit still speaks to men whether by strong impression or a voice (I believe). So does the Holy Spirit speak infallibly and without error? Can the Holy Spirit speak anything less than infallibly and inerrantly? Should we place these new revelations at the same level as the Bible?
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,579
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,579 |
I believe that we should not condemn persons for their beliefs and that we should be cognisant of the fact that when our beliefs seek to exclude a great number of individuals and it seems that we back this up with scripture and pass it off as facts rather than beliefs, that others percieve it to be an attack on their belief. Uh...where does one start? John 4
19 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.
20 "Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."
21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22 "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.
24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." Galatians 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! Galatians 5
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. Ephesians 4
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. Colossians 2
1 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Laodicea, and for all those who have not personally seen my face,
2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.
5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 2 Timothy 2:15- "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. 2 Timothy 3
13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 4
1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. Titus 1
7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. Titus 2:1- "But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. James 3:1- "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. 2 Peter 1-2
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment 2 Peter 3
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. 1 John 2
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 5
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.
10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life...
20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 2 John 1
4 I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father.
5 Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds. 3 John 1
1 The elder to the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth.
2 Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.
3 For I was very glad when brethren came and testified to your truth, that is, how you are walking in truth.
4 I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth. Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12 These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever. Revelation 2
14 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.
15 "So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
16 "Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Persnickety Presbyterian |
Persnickety Presbyterian Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040 |
Delivered said:
Once more Kyle.
I am not saying that He(God) will save everyone, the scriptures do not say this. I am saying that all will get the opportunity to hear and of all those hearing the predestined will accept and those who are not wont.
How will this opportunity arise when they have not gotten the opportunity to hear the gospel in their own language, or the opportunity to read the Bible in their language. We all agree of the Bible's importance to the Christian walk. All of the elect (those predestined) will certainly hear, but there's nothing in Scripture to the effect that all men will actually hear the true Gospel preached. No doubt some men have never heard it, yet they are still accountable for their sin. I could say also that your idea, that, God cannot and will not speak to anyone audibly now is placing him in a box also but I do not think it is your intention to do this as it is not my intention. We disagree on this point and we can leave it at that. You were the one who first accused me of "limiting God." I have only all along been arguing from the Scripture. It's not that God is unable to speak audibly to anyone today, it's that it is completely unnecessary and unpromised. We have His Word in Scripture, period. I do not believe that the scriptures say that the Holy Spirit has stopped communicating to men directly. In the instance of the voice being heard telling of God's Will audible to the hearer only, this to me is evidence that the Holy Spirit still speaks to men whether by strong impression or a voice (I believe). Why don't you show from Scripture that this is the case, rather than relying on an argument from silence? I know that you did not quote from the King James version, and I know that he never did the actual work himself. This is the version that I have and I know that many new versions exist. At my church both the King James version, and the New International Version is used. These new Bibles are expensive and many opt to stay with the version that they feel more confortable reading.
I said King James version to make the point. It was a silly point and completely unrelated to what I actually said.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 23
Plebeian
|
|
Plebeian
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 23 |
CovenantInBlood said:
The biblical gift of tongues was a sign that the New Covenant would include people from every nation. It was especially important for the Jews, so that they did not try to force Gentiles to become Jews or vainly think that Christ's blood was shed for Jews alone - and so that they would also see that God had judged the Jewish nation for her disobedience and the Old Covenant would be done away. I can't believe I've never heard it put this way before. Thanks, Kyle. That was an amazing eye-opener for me. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bravo.gif" alt="" />
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,026 Likes: 274
Head Honcho
|
|
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,026 Likes: 274 |
guidedbygrace, There are a number of articles on The Highway that deal with this particular subject, e.g., the cessation of tongues, prophesy, etc. Click here: The Charismatic Movement
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif) simul iustus et peccator![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Newbie
|
|
OP
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 41 |
Dear Puritan,
I raised my point about Bible translation and language to say, that I believe, that the evryone will get the opportunity to hear the gopel of Jesus Christ and it can happen in the abscence of access to the Bible in their own language or in the abscence of a "preacher" speaking that language. I believe that the Holy Spirit moves upon whomever is yielded to Him and that just as He moved upon Paul and Peter and the Apostles and upon the congregation who Paul addressed in 1Corinthians 14:1-40, that the Holy Spirit still moves upon persons today.
It's also the theology of the Church that I attend.
I am almost sure I said that before. I guess you may say that I should leave, if I think differently.
To CovenantInBlood:
As much as you may not have received my apology for my attitude in the past discourse (owing to the fact that you have not acknowledged it), I did say I was sorry and am taking a calmer approach to this discussion.
Now I have read the passage in 1Corinthians 13 speaking about all kinds of Spiritual Gifts, among them Profecy and Tongues, Knowledge, Kindness etc. and I do not agree that this passage says that Tongues and Prophecy do not exist at this time as this is still a part of the dispensation of Grace. I do think that it was meant to show the importance of Love over any gift, and I happen to agree with this thought. Love is the primary gift that we get from God. It is Love that motivated Him as stated in John 3:16.
Where we disagree, and therefore, owing to the fact that the idea is a fundamental principle of our theology, is where it is said that God only speaks through the Bible now, I think that this is a serious topic for both of us and we should just agree to disagree since we both hold to our belief on this matter.
Up to recently there has been much discussion over the period of time before the Letters comprising the New Testament scriptures were written and compiled and this therefore makes it difficult to place the actual time on the publishing (in whatever form) of our Bible. So at what time did the Prophecies and Tongues stop alltogether? Is there a part in the Bible that says it stopped at this point after the last letter was written and which letter is the last.
I am not suggesting that you change your belief, I am suggesting that I have examined this claim and have had problems with it based on the Biblical references that are not conclusive on this topic and the fact that there are evidences that all the Gifts are still at work. Not suggesting either that any Gift should take a place that is higher than the Bible. These gifts are still at work Romans 11:29, Romans 12:3-9, 1Corinthians 12, all of the gifts until 2 Thessalonians 2:7 that is what I believe.
The real question to ask is why God saves anyone. It's not like God is lonely and needs us. It's by God's sheer unconditional mercy and love that anyone is saved.
(See Romans 11:33-36)
|
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
117
guests, and
33
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
31
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|
|
