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#28544 Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:09 PM
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Why is it that creationists, young earth creationists, intelligent design proponents, and evolutionists all seem to consider their particular theories and beliefs to be mutually exclusive - i.e.,only they are right and everybody else therefore is completely wrong? Clearly there is a degree of fact and truth in each of their arguments, so wouldn't it make sense for some of our heavy thinkers to attempt to synthesize all of it into some sort of, "General Theory of Man's Origin And Role", rather than fighting each other to a stalemate?

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ALEXH said:
Why is it that creationists, young earth creationists, intelligent design proponents, and evolutionists all seem to consider their particular theories and beliefs to be mutually exclusive - i.e.,only they are right and everybody else therefore is completely wrong? Clearly there is a degree of fact and truth in each of their arguments, so wouldn't it make sense for some of our heavy thinkers to attempt to synthesize all of it into some sort of, "General Theory of Man's Origin And Role", rather than fighting each other to a stalemate?
Welcome to The Highway Discussion Board! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps it would be helpful if you could:
  1. List a few items which you think are shared among these antithetical views, e.g., Creationism vs. Evolutionism?
  2. What would you suggest those holding to biblical Creationism "synthesize" with humanistic Evolution?
  3. What are a few "facts" and "truth" do you find in Evolution which are not antithetical to biblical Creationism?


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ALEXH #28546 Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:06 PM
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ALEXH said:
Why is it that creationists, young earth creationists, intelligent design proponents, and evolutionists all seem to consider their particular theories and beliefs to be mutually exclusive - i.e.,only they are right and everybody else therefore is completely wrong?

Well, they consider their beliefs to be mutually exclusive because they are. God either created the world in 6 days 6,000 years ago or he got the evolutionary ball rolling eons ago and sort of helped things out over billions of years time. There's no way to have both.

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Clearly there is a degree of fact and truth in each of their arguments

Clearly? Is there? This is something that stands to be shown.

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, so wouldn't it make sense for some of our heavy thinkers to attempt to synthesize all of it into some sort of, "General Theory of Man's Origin And Role", rather than fighting each other to a stalemate?

See above.

Welcome to the board.


(Latin phrase goes here.)
ALEXH #28547 Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:24 PM
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The people who support evolution for the most parts are atheists. They dont want to hear or even think about God creating the universe.

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Johnnie_Burgess said:
The people who support evolution for the most parts are atheists. They dont want to hear or even think about God creating the universe.

The problem with creation is not scientific it is philosophical! A creator would have the right and perogative to tell us how to live, to dictate what is right and what is wrong, and hold us accountable. To the post-modern mind this is unthinkable!


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John,

You are absolutely correct. These white robed Darwinists are not "scientists" but in every sense, secular priests. It is my belief that the fundamentalists have made a very great error in trying to present creationism or intelligent design as "science". They should have been arguing all along, before the courts, that evolution is a deceptive yet very pure form of "religion". Any speculation about origins, no matter how it is cloaked, should be rightfully called religious in nature.

It is my belief that neither atheistic evolution or creationism should be taught in the public schools and should be left to those outside, who are honest about their presentation of religious ideas.

Denny

Roms 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Pilgrim #28550 Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:34 AM
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Pilgrim,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply requesting more detail about what a few shared antithesisists views might be. Clearly, I do not claim any particular insight to Creationism or Evolutionism, but I would expect rational proponents might agree that:

Many living things exhibit some evolutionary characteristics.

Study of our world and all living things indicate a growing possibility they were not just the result of random processes.

All of the matter, energy and life in the universe was somehow created and could not have sprung from nothingness.

Humans have certain unique capabilities permitting them to develop, store and transfer knowledge from previous generations, giving them the ability to seek truth.

Evolving faith and inspired science will guide the path to truth.

Individuals will continue to believe as they choose, but the search for truth should not be denied.

Regards


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ALEXH said:
Evolving faith and inspired science will guide the path to truth.

Individuals will continue to believe as they choose, but the search for truth should not be denied.

Regards


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But if you are a scientist and believe in God, the ones who teach evolution will say you are not a true scientist.

ALEXH #28552 Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:23 AM
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Hi Alexh,

I know your post was addressed to Pilgtim, but I hope you won't mind my comments on your points as someone who has spent a lot of time in this issue from many perspectives.

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Many living things exhibit some evolutionary characteristics.

I agree. But we need to differentiate between micro evolution and macro evolution. Living species can "adapt" using information they already possess. For example, a bird with a specific type of beak will flourish in an area where he can use it best, while another type of bird won't do as well and get weeded out of the gene pool. However, it stands to fact that not one case of a genetic mutation (or "evolution") which added genetic information has ever taken place. The evolutionists conjecture is a leap of faith into the unknown. Some are starting to figure this out (i.e. the growing popularity of the Intelligent Design movement [which it not to be confused with biblical creationism]). We Christians have been trying to tell them so all along, because we happen to be in possession of a document written by the One who wrote DNA in the first place.

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Study of our world and all living things indicate a growing possibility they were not just the result of random processes.

Not just a possibility! Evolution always was blind faith. See above.

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All of the matter, energy and life in the universe was somehow created and could not have sprung from nothingness.

Amen.

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Humans have certain unique capabilities permitting them to develop, store and transfer knowledge from previous generations, giving them the ability to seek truth.

These capabilities were given to them by their Maker in order that they might seek Him, who is Truth himself.

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Evolving faith and inspired science will guide the path to truth.

Again, I must disagree. Truth will never be found by a faith that "evolves" or human science, guided by the presuppositions of men who insist on making themselves the reference point of truth in the universe. Truth is found in God who reveals it to us through His word, i.e. the Bible. The very notion of "truth" as opposed to that which is "false" is dependent on the Bible. Without the standard which God has set for us, everything is just matter and motion and one random conflation of synapses called and "idea" is just as good as another.

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Individuals will continue to believe as they choose, but the search for truth should not be denied.

See above.


(Latin phrase goes here.)
ALEXH #28553 Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:53 PM
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ALEXH said:
Clearly, I do not claim any particular insight to Creationism or Evolutionism, but I would expect rational proponents might agree that:

Many living things exhibit some evolutionary characteristics.
"Evolutionary characteristics" in itself is a term which needs definition before I, e.g., as a firm biblical Creationist would affirm is agreeable. However, even if it is verifiable that there has been some mutation (evolution) within species, this is hardly any proof or even hint that Evolution is even plausible.

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Study of our world and all living things indicate a growing possibility they were not just the result of random processes.

All of the matter, energy and life in the universe was somehow created and could not have sprung from nothingness.
No Creationist would agree to such statements for is a denial of the existence of THE true Living God or at best promotes Agnosticism.

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Humans have certain unique capabilities permitting them to develop, store and transfer knowledge from previous generations, giving them the ability to seek truth.
This is irrelevant.... but I might add that no human is capable of "developing" knowledge, for all knowledge comes from God. Secondly, humans who have been received salvific grace are not only capable of seeking truth but also of knowing truth with certainty, for all truth comes from God (Jh 14:6) and is found in His inspired, inerrant and infallible Word (Jh 17:17; 8:31, 32).

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Evolving faith and inspired science will guide the path to truth.
By "evolving faith", I am going to assume here that you are intending to say that "faith" refers to a repository of truth rather than one's adherence to a body of truth. Unfortunately, Christianity holds to absolute truth or as it is sometimes called propositional truth or true truth, which does not "evolve". Admittedly, there are those who profess Christianity but either seriously err in some of their views or are incapable of embracing truth being yet unregenerate and thus what they profess to believe will always be in a state of flux (2Tim 3:7; Prov 14:6)

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Individuals will continue to believe as they choose, but the search for truth should not be denied.
It can be granted that no human being will ever attain full knowledge of all things, for that is an attribute of deity; Omniscience. And thus, the search for truth is life-long. However, the crux of the matter is not in the seeking but rather in the antithesis between Christianity and all other "theories" of Origins in regard to the source. The epistemology of Christianity and all other theories, systems, religions, etc., differ dramatically and are totally incompatible. Christianity does not permit nor can it be changed into some philosophical colloidal suspension with non-Christian thought.

The matter is actually so simple.. God's inspired, inerrant and infallible written Word, the Bible, says that the Almighty Creator God created all things in the span of 6 24-hour days. In the brief account that He has revealed about how He created the various elements there is no room for evolutionary thought nor any other kind of "theory". It's one of those "all or nothing" propositions; believe God or believe something else:


Romans 1:18-25 (ASV) "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."


In His grace,


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Pilgrim #28554 Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:58 AM
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Pilgrim,

OK, I stuck my neck out and suggested a few areas where Creationists and Evolutions might try to find common ground to work together. From your reply, I would conclude you don't think there is much chance of it, short of total capitulation by the other side.

So now it's your turn. Are there any shared views you can think of that Creationists and Evolutionists might agree upon? Are there any potential areas for synthesis between the two camps you might want to suggest as being feasible. Are there any facts and truths common to Creationism and Evolution you are aware of? Or do you really believe any attempts to reconcile these varying views would be hopeless, without merit and contrary to His wishes?

Denny, Henry and Johnnie, thank you for your replies. You also might want to add any further comments you may have on the potential and value of a search for reconciliation.

Regards

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ALEXH,

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Denny, Henry and Johnnie, thank you for your replies. You also might want to add any further comments you may have on the potential and value of a search for reconciliation.

As I stated in my post, I do not believe there is the slightest chance for reconciliation as these two camps are at war. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/argue.gif" alt="" /> IMO, the only "common ground" is the fact that science is but a smokescreen, as both camps are deeply committed to philosophical/religious presuppositions about our origins.

I am firmly and unflinchingly on the side of the words of God in Scripture, the literal six day (Yom) and relatively recent creation.

Denny

Roms 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Adopted #28556 Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:46 PM
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Denny

Though I certainly understand where you are coming from, I am not quite certain I would go that far.
I may be wrong but I think the problem occurs because in the public school system they are teaching theory as fact.
True science only deals with the facts that have been proven, theory should not be considered as science.
If they want to go further, they should say exactly what it is, philosophy not science.
The question is, should philosophy be taught in the public school system?

Tom

ALEXH #28557 Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:18 PM
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Welcome to the board.

You said:
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Are there any facts and truths common to Creationism and Evolution you are aware of?

The only thing that I can think of that is common is where pure demonstratable facts are in the picture. Both Evolutionists and Creationists deal with the same facts. However, after that theory enters into the picture.

This is where there is no common ground, for if one side gives into the other, they are in essence denying what they believe, whether they realize it or not.
Theistic Evolutionists are an example of this, by their giving into evolutionary theory; they have called into question what the Bible says.

Tom

#28558 Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:32 PM
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But if you are a scientist and believe in God, the ones who teach evolution will say you are not a true scientist.

This is of course true, but if scientists (evolutionary or creationist) were honest they would realize that a true scientist's job is to deal with and look for facts. They should leave philosophy to philosophers.
This is not to say that scientists can't say what theories known facts lead them to believe, but they should be honest enough to realize that theory is not science.

By the way, there are many scientists who are Creationists.

Tom

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