The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Election a hurdle?!?!

Pilgrim said:What a great analogy <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> I am going to have to remember that one.


Tom

Thanks for your appreciation of how seriously we Reformed take the doctrine of election.

To push the matter a bit further, in an earlier post you said:


This is exactly the fussiness of Arminian heresy that the Reformed deplore. For what does "put Christ first" mean if we do not give the Scriptural reason why He came with the Gospel to this earth in the first place? The Scriptural answer is; To find and redeem God's elected children from sin and damnation, as this world has already been judged to be depraved, dead and deserving of Hell.

The bottom line is that the doctrine of election is a "hurdle" only to those who refuse to believe in God's absolute sovereignty and righteously just mercy.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Amen! Denny... you preach it brother; I stutter! hehe

The non-Reformed population has the erroneous notion that everyone comes into this world with some degree of "neutrality", i.e., they are all universally given the "chance" to be saved by making a "decision for Jesus". And ONLY if they reject the gospel are they damned. However, the Bible is all too clear that ALL are under sin and God's wrath and have been judged already in Adam; Original Sin. (Jh 3:18, 19; Rom 5:12-18) Rejecting the Gospel, assuming that God has even been gracious enough to bring it to one's ears, only adds to their condemnation. People are sent to Hell because of WHO THEY ARE BY NATURE and not because of anything they do or not do.

In His grace,

Thanks Pilgrim, - nice graemlin!

Please allow me to add one of my most favorite verses in Scripture.


Denny

Romans 3:22-24

The bottom line is that the doctrine of election is a "hurdle" only to those who refuse to believe in God's absolute sovereignty and righteously just mercy.

Denny




* But we are not saved simply becasue we believe Reformed Election and we are not damned just becasue we don't - yes?

Even if we believe the Reformed Dotrine of Election/Predestination it doesn't mean we are Elect - right?

So I guess we should seperate theology from salvation - this way we don't come off as too self-righteous or authoritative on a delicate matter which deals with GOd's hidden decree.

On a related note, here's an e-mail exchange between John Hendryx and I about a month ago:

Hello Mr. Hendryx,

I just wanted to write you and tell you how much I have enjoyed your articles. Particularly those which deal with Prevenient Grace. In my opinion the idea of preveninet grace is what separates Reformed theology from all other sects of Christianity.

Unfortunately, when I witness to others the doctrine of free & sovereign grace the response I receive is usually disgust or disbelief. Why can't we accept that the reason we choose God is because He first chose us? I guess it goes against our carnal nature to do so.

I used to agree with you that Arminians could be saved, but when I experience such negative feedback regarding the doctrine of election I begin to question whether one can be a true child of God without coming to the realization that all the praise and all the glory must go to God for bestowing His grace and mercy upon a
spiritually dead sinner.

I know you've spent much time defending the doctrines of grace alone but I would like you to explain how an Arminian who does not truly believe in grace alone can benefit from such a doctrine and thus be saved? And if they can be saved why do we spend so much time debating Reformed theology to begin with? Why don't we just let the Arminian be?

Thank You!








Anthony

Thanks for your kind words....We do not "let the Arminian be" because we glorify God when we do not misprepresent God and His revelation to us. There are
many, many, many, in the Arminian/Semi Pelagian camp that do not even know what the word "Arminian" means. Those who teach it and promote it may or may
not be beyond help, but the millions of persons within the sphere of Arminain teaching can benefit from hearing the biblical view. Many write me each week telling
me that they used to be Arminians until they came accross this site. That is why we don't leave them be,.

John





Anthony

Your question, "And if they can be saved why do we spend so
much time debating Reformed theology to begin with?"

Answer: For the same reason we preach and teach the gospel to our people in church each Sunday. They are saved already so why bother, if we were to follow
the logic of your argument to its logical end, no? We are called to spur one another on to good teaching because it glorifies God. It is not a matter of simply
whether someone is saved or not. Bad theology is harmful to the church. As John Piper says, "Bad theology will eventually hurt people and
dishonor God in proportion to its badness." - John Piper (A Godward Life Volume Two, pg. 377)

But if we must have perfect theology and a perfect understanding of God before we are saved, then no one will be
saved. Grace would not be grace.

The Arminian heart is often better than his head.

But to the degree that we mispreresent God, to the same degree we commit idolatry and all of us are guilty of this at some level. That is why we need grace.

John

One other quick question?

If GOd is outside of time how do we know our elect status is fixed - can't God change the course of one's eternal fate with the snap of His fingers - or is this an invalid question based on some of the scriptures and feedback already provided?

Let me quickly address an issue you brought up in one of your other replies regarding the salvation of "Arminians" and "right doctrine". The answer is actually very simple.... will there be any Arminians in heaven?, No.... absolutely not for Arminians rely upon grace + works to save them and we know that "by the works of the law no one is justified". However, there is a crucial distinction that must be made in regard to "Arminians". As John Hendrix pointed out, there is sometimes a disparity between what resides in one's head (what they confess) and what resides in the heart (what controls their life).

To put this in practical terms, IF <------ a semi-Pelagian (I am using this term rather than Arminian because for all intents of purposes 99% of those who are deemed Arminians are actually semi-Pelagians today) TRULY believes in his/her heart what they profess doctrinally, then they are not saved. Notice, I did not say then cannot be saved, for until the last breath is drawn, there is always hope that they will repent and believe on Christ with a true living faith. To try and make it even clearer for you, IF <------- a person TRULY believes that the prime reason that they are saved and their neighbor isn't saved is because they "made a decision for Christ" then again, they are not saved because they are resting in their own "free-will", i.e., a "work" of the flesh. One could simply substitute any of the doctrines of grace and the result is the same because it always comes down to what the individual does rather than what God does.

I cannot help but conclude that all this confusion and consternation you are having is due mostly to your lack of having a solid foundation of biblical teaching and specifically a working knowledge to some degree of Calvinism. There is certainly nothing "wrong" with being ignorant about something.... we are all ignorant about many things. But to try and debate or convince someone without having the knowledge and/or tools to do so you are simply asking for trouble. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Yeh, yeh.. I know it's the practice of most in the "evan-jelly-cal" world to have people read that little prayer on the back of the "Four Spiritual Laws" card and tell them, "You are now saved! Now, go out and tell others about Jesus and get them saved." Fortunately, there are few to no other areas of life where this type of silliness is practiced. Can you imagine applying that type of methodology to prospective drivers? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Eeeeeek.gif" alt="" /> Can't you see a Driving Examiner saying, "Okay.. here young man, read the little blurb on the back of this card and then you will be not only a certified driver but you will also be qualified to make other people drivers."

Again, The Highway has well over 1100 books, booklets, articles and sermons from which you can choose on various subjects. You can start by going here: Calvinism and the Reformed Faith. Get learned..... !! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

So God is apparently capricious or arbitrary in electing some and reprobating others, despite the fact that we're all equally deserving of hell?

AJC,

Now that's quite an indictment against a thrice holy God whose work is perfect! (Deut 32:4) Again, what injustice can you find in God if He determines to show mercy to some and not to others ALL of whom are undeserving of anything other than damnation? Well, there's no sense in me trying to explain what Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit has already written as an answer to those who had the same and other similar charges to bring against God:

Romans 9:11-23 (ASV) "for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,"

We all must bow before the majesty of God and receive Him and all His judgments openly as He has revealed them to us. Oh, that old adage seems to be more and more appropriate as time goes on: "In the beginning God created man in His own image and ever since that time man has been trying to return the favor!"

In His marvelous grace,

Pilgrim -

those are not my words - they are those of another who feels that our presentation of the Gospel paints the picture of a forceful God not a benevolent one.

I've also heard a defense that GOd is not a rapist who forces us to love Him and that true love is given freely or chosen and that God wants us to love Him by choice so we must have free-will to freely do so.

I'm not trying to blaspheme, God forgive me if this dialogue is leading me to do so.

I think I have a great deal of praying to do - I will read anymore reponses if any are so inclinded but I'm going to drop out of the discussion/cease my participation.

Peace to all!

Well, that is certainly a relief to read. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hope you are getting what I've tried to impress upon you re: the REAL issue that really bugs people isn't so much Unconditional Election but rather the doctrine of Total Depravity, which lies at the root of most all these types of complaints.

1) God doesn't "force" anyone to do anything, either good or bad and especially in regard to someone loving Him. We could also turn that around and ask, how is it even feasible that some depraved sinner could get a thrice-holy God to love them? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> Since ALL are under condemnation, surely God's wrath must be appeased before even He could love anyone, no? Well, the "Good News" is that His wrath has been appeased by Christ's propitiation which was offered in behalf of all those for whom the Father gave Him. Isn't that marvelous? God appeased His own wrath by sacrificing Himself. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" /> God's election of certain sinners was done with a view to them being "in Christ" (Eph 1:4-13). If God loved everyone equally, then ALL would be saved for God's love isn't like our human sentimentality but rather it is active; i.e., it procures that which it is put upon.

2) If it were not for God's Unconditional Election which includes the actual salvation of the objects of it through means, then no one would give a hoot about God, Christ or salvation never mind loving God and rendering obedience to Him as LORD. Because ALL are born dead in sins, the only possible way that anyone CAN love God, never mind will to love God is if they are regenerated (aka: born again). This new birth is also part of God's election in Christ whereby the Spirit of God recreates (resurrects) the dead soul and thus enables a sinner to see themselves for who they are and to see God for Who He is. Out of that new nature flows a love for God and thus as the sinner loved sin and hated God by nature, so the regenerated sinner hates sin and loves God most naturally and most freely. So again, no one is "forced" to love God. But no one is capable of loving God unless God loves Him first. (1Jh 4:19; 15:16; Rom 3:11; Eph 1:3-5; 4:17-19)

3) Lastly, there is no such animal as "free-will" as taught by semi-Pelagianism/Arminianism. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" /> A naturally born sinner is without doubt "free" to do that which is accord with his nature. And the nature being corrupt, depraved, sinful can only choose to sin. Thus a sinner is free to sin to his heart's content according to the dictates of his nature. Loving God, believing on Christ and/or striving after righteousness is NOT something which a sinful nature desires. So again, unless and until a man's nature is changed, he cannot do what these people say they should be allowed to do... to make a "free-will" decision for Christ. Dead people are incapable of making choices concerning life. It took the sovereign life-giving word of God incarnate to resurrect Lazarus from the tomb before he was capable of walking from it. And this is where these people you meet err. They simply refuse to accept the biblical teaching that the natural man is DEAD. Thus, they believe men can cooperate with God in their salvation by contributing to it through their "free-will" choices. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" />

Okay.... enough! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

Here's a few more salient articles which you will definitely benefit from:

1) Presbyterian Doctrine of Total Depravity, by Thomas Gregory

2) Total Depravity, by Rev. Gordon Girod

3) The Sinfulness of Man's Natural State, by Thomas Boston

4) Free-Will a Slave, by Charles Spurgeon (one of my favorite sermons by Spurgeon)

5) There Are Only Two Religions in the World, by John Reisinger

In His grace,

Due to man's sinfull nature he always will try to create a god that suits his own ideas.

We all had our "chance" in Adam--and we failed miserably. God is under no further obligation to us, other than to destroy us for our wickedness.

Therefore, it is all the more to the praise of God's glory that He has graciously chosen, of HIS free will, to save some of us wretched creatures in spite of us deserving the same fate as everyone else.