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Joined: Apr 2007
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Journeyman
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Tom said:
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evangelist said:
Quote
Tom said:
evangelist

What gives you the idea that the answers given so far conflict with the Bible?
The onus is on you to show where and how they conflict with the Bible.
Your statement makes it sound like you believe that once someone uses language outside of the Bible to explain what the Bible means, they are automatically "man's theology" and therefore wrong.
Is this what you believe?

Tom

Yes!
I look at the bible as my final authority.
if i was RCC i might have another belief.

You did not answer my question.
In order to understand what a Bible passage says, one has to know things like context, etc...
This is one of the reasons why there are so many different cults and organization such as the Word of Faith movement, that use Scripture to justify what they believe on a given subject. However, they use these passages in a manner that that brings their own meaning into the passage, rather than using letting Scripture interpret Scripture.

Do you understand what I am getting at?

Tom

Why are some called the Word of faith?
Isn't better than the word of theology or reasonings, and natural logics?

Proverb:4:7: Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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ExCharisma
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evangelist said:
1Th:5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice the three parts
1.YOUR spirit.
2.YOUR soul
3.Your body meaning yours which belongs to you which is biblically three part which is yours.

These terms are not defined by this verse. It is God's Spirit which is infallible and perfect. Our spirit is "preserved blameless" along with "body and soul." You claim that the human spirit of a believer is infallible, but this verse doesn't say that. Nor does any other passage of Scripture.

The only way to define these terms is to compare Scripture with Scripture. Not look up the word in a 21st century dictionary, nor theorize on what it means to you.

Quote
Ec:12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

But Ecc 12:7 doesn't say what happens to the soul. It describes two things: "Dust" and spirit.

In the same book the author Solomon also writes,

Quote
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)?

Now if you insist on taking every passage of Scripture literally, then how do you resolve the apparent contradiction between this passage and the ones you use to describe an infallible and immortal human spirit (the inner man, or invisible part) in addition to body and soul (the outer man, or that which we can see)?

Quote
Proverb:20:27: The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

I still see only two "parts" mentioned here; spirit and belly. The words "spirit," "breath," "life," and "soul" are most often interchangable in both Testaments.

Quote
So the scriptures show we have a spirit in us which is a part of you. We know we have a soul, and third they both live in a body. So how many part does the bible teaches we have?

None of the Scriptures you quoted teach any such thing! But instead of proving anything, you simply re-state the same thesis over and over again, as if you can win the argument by mere repetition.

So explain why Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 should not be interpreted in the same way you have interpreted 1st Thessalonians 5:23.

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Evangelist,

You stated:
Quote
That is like saying my mind and my thoughts, and thinking are also three different things.

I am glad that you understand my point so well. It is also like saying that my soul and my spirit are 2 different things, when the preponderance of usage indicates that they are not.

Evangelist, no one here is interested in fighting with you over how well either of us can count. The issue we are engaging you with so much patience is because of the massive negative implications for the gospel, the church, and the glory of Christ when your approach is used as the basis for doctrines which are not in line with the truth.


In Christ,
Paul S
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Persnickety Presbyterian
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So what is that which we recieved when a person get born again?

New life by the power of the Spirit of God.

Quote
Do we get a new incorruptible seed, or not?

The "incorruptible seed" is the word of God (I Pet. 1:23). We do not "get" it, but are reborn by it.

Quote
Does everyone remain the same so a sinner doesn't need a brand new spirit?

If the sinner gets a "brand new spirit," what happens to the old one? And why not also a "brand new soul"? You're adding to Scripture. The spirit of the believer is REBORN, not replaced. But that does not make the believer's spirit infallible.


Kyle

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Tom Offline
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Is this some kind of game you are playing, or is it that you have terrible reading comprehension?
Regarding your question about: "Why are some called the Word of faith?"
That is what they call themselves and I should know because I used to be in the movement myself. Also as it has been shown you before, beyond a reasonable doubt, they are a cult.
However, this is off topic.

Tom

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CovenantInBlood said:
Quote
So what is that which we recieved when a person get born again?

New life by the power of the Spirit of God.

Quote
Do we get a new incorruptible seed, or not?

The "incorruptible seed" is the word of God (I Pet. 1:23). We do not "get" it, but are reborn by it.

Quote
Does everyone remain the same so a sinner doesn't need a brand new spirit?

If the sinner gets a "brand new spirit," what happens to the old one? And why not also a "brand new soul"? You're adding to Scripture. The spirit of the believer is REBORN, not replaced. But that does not make the believer's spirit infallible.

2Co:5:17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co:5:18: And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Ga:4:5: To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Ga:4:6: And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Ga:4:7: Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Tom said:
Is this some kind of game you are playing, or is it that you have terrible reading comprehension?
Regarding your question about: "Why are some called the Word of faith?"
That is what they call themselves and I should know because I used to be in the movement myself. Also as it has been shown you before, beyond a reasonable doubt, they are a cult.
However, this is off topic.

Tom
It is off the topic , i am discussing our born again spirits, not a cult or religion at large.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Robin #38460 Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:45 PM
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Robin said:
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evangelist said:
1Th:5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice the three parts
1.YOUR spirit.
2.YOUR soul
3.Your body meaning yours which belongs to you which is biblically three part which is yours.

These terms are not defined by this verse. It is God's Spirit which is infallible and perfect. Our spirit is "preserved blameless" along with "body and soul." You claim that the human spirit of a believer is infallible, but this verse doesn't say that. Nor does any other passage of Scripture.

The only way to define these terms is to compare Scripture with Scripture. Not look up the word in a 21st century dictionary, nor theorize on what it means to you.

Quote
Ec:12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

But Ecc 12:7 doesn't say what happens to the soul. It describes two things: "Dust" and spirit.

In the same book the author Solomon also writes,

Quote
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)?

Now if you insist on taking every passage of Scripture literally, then how do you resolve the apparent contradiction between this passage and the ones you use to describe an infallible and immortal human spirit (the inner man, or invisible part) in addition to body and soul (the outer man, or that which we can see)?

Quote
Proverb:20:27: The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

I still see only two "parts" mentioned here; spirit and belly. The words "spirit," "breath," "life," and "soul" are most often interchangable in both Testaments.

Quote
So the scriptures show we have a spirit in us which is a part of you. We know we have a soul, and third they both live in a body. So how many part does the bible teaches we have?

None of the Scriptures you quoted teach any such thing! But instead of proving anything, you simply re-state the same thesis over and over again, as if you can win the argument by mere repetition.

So explain why Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 should not be interpreted in the same way you have interpreted 1st Thessalonians 5:23.

I think 1 thess 5:23 really is to easy to misunderstand or misinterpretate, because it in itself explain our three parts.
Do I need to go into the Greek to get a clearer understanding?


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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Tom Offline
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Quote
evangelist said:
Quote
Tom said:
Is this some kind of game you are playing, or is it that you have terrible reading comprehension?
Regarding your question about: "Why are some called the Word of faith?"
That is what they call themselves and I should know because I used to be in the movement myself. Also as it has been shown you before, beyond a reasonable doubt, they are a cult.
However, this is off topic.

Tom
It is off the topic , i am discussing our born again spirits, not a cult or religion at large.

Now I know this is a game you are playing. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nono.gif" alt="" />

Tom

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evangelist said:
I think 1 thess 5:23 really is to easy to misunderstand or misinterpret, because it in itself explain our three parts. Do I need to go into the Greek to get a clearer understanding?

Yes, you do! And you need to compare Scripture with Scripture rather than some TBN teacher's suppositions.

Robin #38463 Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:41 PM
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Tom Offline
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Robin

It is my opinion that evangelist is more interested in playing games, than actually learning.
I for one don't want to be a part of that anymore.

Tom

Tom #38464 Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:58 PM
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He hasn't answered anybody's questions. Nor can he. Instead he just keeps repeating the same assertions using out-of-context Bible verses and putting heretical meaning to terms.

I hope this dicussion is over now. As far as I'm concerned it is...

Robin #38465 Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:07 PM
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Robin said:
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evangelist said:
I think 1 thess 5:23 really is to easy to misunderstand or misinterpret, because it in itself explain our three parts. Do I need to go into the Greek to get a clearer understanding?

Yes, you do! And you need to compare Scripture with Scripture rather than some TBN teacher's suppositions.

There are other scriptures to prove this is right I jsu went to the simple one which a blind person would see and understand it .But the bible does say in the miuth of to or three witness.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Robin #38466 Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:10 PM
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Robin said:
Quote
evangelist said:
I think 1 thess 5:23 really is to easy to misunderstand or misinterpret, because it in itself explain our three parts. Do I need to go into the Greek to get a clearer understanding?

Yes, you do! And you need to compare Scripture with Scripture rather than some TBN teacher's suppositions.

There are other scriptures to prove this is right I just went to the simple one which a blind person would see and understand it .But the bible does say in the miuth of to or three witness.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
Robin #38467 Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:13 PM
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Robin said:
He hasn't answered anybody's questions. Nor can he. Instead he just keeps repeating the same assertions using out-of-context Bible verses and putting heretical meaning to terms.

I hope this dicussion is over now. As far as I'm concerned it is...

This is the same responce I got from Catholics and JHW.
Are you a Catholic?


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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