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#40859 Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:47 PM
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I understand millennial views have changed and have been argued (debated) about for centries. I also understand that they are an important (but not the most important) doctrine in scripture. The most important thing in scripture is that they "testify" of Jesus Christ and are able to make one "wise unto salvation through faith" in Him.

-BUT-

The Second Helvetic Confession attributed to Heinrich Bullinger (July 18, 1504 to September 17, 1575) in Chapter XI clearly shows a ammillennial position more than a postmillennial hope and the premillennial position is not to be found and is even condemned. My question is are there any other historic confessions which show millennial views or are they all silent because the men that wrote them were to fearful to be wrong?

Quote
CHAPTER XI
Of Jesus Christ, True God and Man,
the Only Savior of the World


CHRIST IS TRUE GOD. We further believe and teach that the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, was predestinated or foreordained from eternity by the Father to be the Savior of the world. And we believe that he was born, not only when he assumed flesh of the Virgin Mary, and not only before the foundation of the world was laid, but by the Father before all eternity in an inexpressible manner. For Isaiah said: "Who can tell his generation?" (Ch. 53:8). And Micah says: "His origin is from of old, from ancient days" (Micah 5:2). And John said in the Gospel: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," etc. (Ch. 1:1). Therefore, with respect to his divinity the Son is coequal and consubstantial with the Father; true God (Phil. 2:11), not only in name or by adoption or by any merit, but in substance and nature, as the apostle John has often said: "This is the true God and eternal life" (I John 5:20). Paul also says: "He appointed the Son the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding all things by his word of power" (Heb. 1:2 f.). For in the Gospel the Lord himself said: "Father, glorify Thou me in Thy own presence with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was made" (John 17:5). And in another place in the Gospel it is written: "The Jews sought all the more to kill him because he...called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

THE SECTS. We therefore abhor the impious doctrine of Arius and the Arians against the Son of God, and especially the blasphemies of the Spaniard, Michael Servetus, and all his followers, which Satan through them has, as it were, dragged up out of hell and has most audaciously and impiously spread abroad in the world.
CHRIST IS TRUE MAN, HAVING REAL FLESH. We also believe and teach that the eternal Son of the eternal God was made the Son of man, from the seed of Abraham and David, not from the coitus of a man, as the Ebionites said, but was most chastely conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the ever virgin Mary, as the evangelical history carefully explains to us (Matt., ch. 1). And Paul says: "he took not on him the nature of angels, but of the seed of Abraham." Also the apostle John says that woever does not believe that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is not of God. Therefore, the flesh of Christ was neither imaginary not brought from heaven, as Valentinus and Marcion wrongly imagined.

A RATIONAL SOUL IN CHRIST. Moreover, our Lord Jesus Christ did not have a soul bereft of sense and reason, as Apollinaris thought, nor flesh without a soul, as Eunomius taught, but a soul with its reason, and flesh with its senses, by which in the time of his passion he sustained real bodily pain, as himself testified when he said: "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death" (Matt. 26:38). And, "Now is my soul troubled" (John 12:27).
TWO NATURES IN CHRIST. We therefore acknowledge two natures or substances, the divine and the human, in one and the same Jesus Christ our Lord (Heb., ch. 2). And we say that these are bound and united with one another in such a way that they are not absorbed, or confused, or mixed, but are united or joined together in one person the properties of the natures being unimpaired and permanent.

NOT TWO BUT ONE CHRIST. Thus we worship not two but one Christ the Lord. We repeat: one true God and man. With respect to his divine nature he is consubstantial with the Father, and with respect to the human nature he is consubstantial with us men, and like us in all things, sin excepted (Heb. 4:15).
THE SECTS. And indeed we detest the dogma of the Nestorians who make two of one Christ and dissolve the unity of the Person. Likewise we thoroughly execrate the madness of Eutyches and of the Monothelites or Monophysites who destroy the property of the human nature.

THE DIVINE NATURE OF CHRIST IS NOT PASSIBLE, AND THE HUMAN NATURE IS NOT EVERYWHERE. Therefore, we do not in any way teach that the divine nature in Christ has suffered or that Christ according to his human nature is still in this world and thus is everywhere. For neither do we think or teach that the body of Christ ceased to be a true body after his glorification, or was deified, and deified in such a way that it laid aside its properties as regards body and soul, and changed entirely into a divine nature and began to be merely one substance.

THE SECTS. Hence we by no means approve of or accept the strained, confused and obscure subtleties of Schwenkfeldt and of similar sophists with their self-contradictory arguments; neither are we Schwenkfeldians.
OUR LORD TRULY SUFFERED. We believe, moreover, that our Lord Jesus Christ truly suffered and died for us in the flesh, as Peter says (I Peter 4:1). We abhor the most impious madness of the Jacobites and all the Turks who execrate the suffering of the Lord. At the same time we do not deny that the Lord of glory was crucified for us, according to Paul's words (I Cor. 2:8).

IMPARTATION OF PROPERTIES. We piously and reverently accept and use the impartation of properties which is derived from Scripture and which has been used by all antiquity in explaining and reconciling apparently contradictory passages.

CHRIST IS TRULY RISEN FROM THE DEAD. We believe and teach that the same Jesus Christ our Lord, in his true flesh in which he was crucified and died, rose again from the dead, and that not another flesh was raised other than the one buried, or that a spirit was taken up instead of the flesh, but that he retained his true body. Therefore, while his disciples thought they saw the spirit of the Lord, he showed them his hands and feet which were marked by the prints of the nails and wounds, and added: "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have" (Luke 24:39).

CHRIST IS TRULY ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ, in his same flesh, ascended above all visible heavens into the highest heaven, that is, the dwelling-place of God and the blessed ones, at the right hand of God the Father. Although it signifies an equal participation in glory and majesty, it is also taken to be a certain place about which the Lord, speaking in the Gospel, says: "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). The apostle Peter also says: "Heaven must receive Christ until the time of restoring all things" (Acts 3:21). And from heaven the same Christ will return in judgment, when wickedness will then be at its greatest in the world and when the Antichrist, having corrupted true religion, will fill up all things with superstition and impiety and will cruelly lay waste the Church with bloodshed and flames (Dan., ch. 11). But Christ will come again to claim his own, and by his coming to destroy the Antichrist, and to judge the living and the dead (Acts 17:31). For the dead will rise again (I Thess. 4:14 ff.), and those who on that day (which is unknown to all creatures [Mark 13:32]) will be alive will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," and all the faithful will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, so that then they may enter with him into the blessed dwelling-places to live forever (I Cor. 15:51 f.). But the unbelievers and ungodly will descend with the devils into hell to burn forever and never to be redeemed from torments (Matt. 25:46).

THE SECTS. We therefore condemn all who deny a real resurrection of the flesh (II Tim. 2:18), or who with John of Jerusalem, against whom Jerome wrote, do not have a correct view of the glorification of bodies. We also condemn those who thought that the devil and all the ungodly would at some time be saved, and that there would be an end to punishments. For the Lord has plainly declared: "Their fire is not quenched, and their worm does not die" (Mark 9:44). We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matt., chs. 24 and 25, and Luke, ch. 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thess., ch. 2, and II Tim., chs. 3 and 4, present something quite different.

THE FRUIT OF CHRIST'S DEATH AND RESURRECTION. Further by his passion and death and everything which he did and endured for our sake by his coming in the flesh, our Lord reconciled all the faithful to the heavenly Father, made expiation for sins, disarmed death, overcame damnation and hell, and by his resurrection from the dead brought again and restored life and immortality. For he is our righteousness, life and resurrection, in a word, the fulness and perfection of all the faithful, salvation and all sufficiency. For the apostle says: "In him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell," and, "You have come to fulness of life in him" (Col., chs. 1 and 2).

JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, AND THE TRUE AWAITED MESSIAH. For we teach and believe that this Jesus Christ our Lord is the unique and eternal Savior of the human race, and thus of the whole world, in whom by faith are saved all who before the law, under the law, and under the Gospel were saved, and however many will be saved at the end of the world. For the Lord himself says in the Gospel: "He who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber....I am the door of the sheep" (John 10:1 and 7). And also in another place in the same Gospel he says: "Abraham saw my day and was glad" (ch. 7:56). The apostle Peter also says: "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." We therefore believe that we will be saved through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, as our fathers were (Acts 4:12; 10:43; 15:11). For Paul also says: "All our fathers ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ" (I Cor. 10:3 f.). And thus we read that John says: "Christ was the Lamb which was slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 14:8), and John the Baptist testified that Christ is that "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). Wherefore, we quite openly profess and preach that Jesus Christ is the sole Redeemer and Savior of the world, the King and High Priest, the true and awaited Messiah, that holy and blessed one whom all the types of the law and predictions of the prophets prefigured and promised; and that God appointed him beforehand and sent him to us, so that we are not now to look for any other. Now there only remains for all of us to give all glory to Christ, believe in him, rest in him alone, despising and rejecting all other aids in life. For however many seek salvation in any other than in Christ alone, have fallen from the grace of God and have rendered Christ null and void for themselves (Gal. 5:4).

THE CREEDS OF FOUR COUNCILS RECEIVED. And, to say many things with a few words, with a sincere heart we believe, and freely confess with open mouth, whatever things are defined from the Holy Scriptures concerning the mystery of the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, and are summed up in the Creeds and decrees of the first four most excellent synods convened at Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus and Chalcedon -- together with the Creed of blessed Athanasius [The so-called Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius but dates from the ninth century. It is also called the "Quicunque" from the opening word of the Latin text.], and all similar symbols; and we condemn everything contrary to these.

THE SECTS. And in this way we retain the Christian, orthodox and catholic faith whole and unimpaired; knowing that nothing is contained in the afore said symbols which is not agreeable to the Word of God, and does not altogether make for a sincere exposition of the faith.


Have a good Lord's day,
William

William #40860 Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:42 PM
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Here's another to get you started.


The Lausanne Covenant, Article XV (1974)
The Return of Christ


We believe that Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly, in power and glory, to consummate his salvation and his judgment. This promise of his coming is a further spur to our evangelism, for we remember his words that the gospel must first be preached to all nations. We believe that the interim period between Christ's ascension and return is to be filled with the mission of the people of God, who have no liberty to stop before the end. We also remember his warning that false Christs and false prophets will arise as precursors of the final Antichrist. We therefore reject as a proud, self-confident dream the notion that people can ever build a utopia on earth. Our Christian confidence is that God will perfect his kingdom, and we look forward with eager anticipation to that day, and to the new heaven and earth in which righteousness will dwell and God will reign forever. Meanwhile, we rededicate ourselves to the service of Christ and of people in joyful submission to his authority over the whole of our lives.

Mark 13:10, 21-23; 14:62; Heb. 9:28; Acts 1:8-11; Matt. 28:18, 20; John 2:18; 4:1-3; Luke 12:32; Rev. 21:1-5; II Pet. 3:13



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Pilgrim #40861 Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:23 PM
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Here's a confession of faith you got to like from way back in 1632. I didn't realize anabaptists were that organized. This section is pretty good. There's no mention of a future millenniel reign, only the last day. (Their later confessions are premil.) Other parts of the confession through different wording seem to indicate that Christ reigns in the hearts of believers until the last day.



Quote
THE DORDTRECHT COFESSION OF FAITH

Adopted April 21, 1632, by a Dutch Mennonite Conference held at Dordrecht, Holland.

XVIII. Of the Resurrection of the Dead, and the Last Judgment
Finally, concerning the resurrection of the dead, we confess with the mouth, and believe with the heart, according to Scripture, that in the last day all men who shall have died, and fallen asleep, shall be awaked and quickened, and shall rise again, through the incomprehensible power of God; and that they, together with those who then will still be alive, and who shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trump, shall be placed before the judgment seat of Christ, and the good be separated from the wicked; that then everyone shall receive in his own body according to that he hath done, whether it be good or evil; and that the good or pious, as the blessed, shall be taken up with Christ, and shall enter into life eternal, and obtain that joy, which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man, to reign and triumph with Christ forever. and ever. Matt. 22:30, 31; Dan. 12:12; Job 19:26, 27; Matt. 25:31; John 5:28; II Cor. 5:10; I Cor. 15; Rev. 20:12; I Thess. 4:15; I Cor. 2:9.
And that, on the other hand, the wicked or impious, as accursed, shall be cast into outer darkness, yea, into the everlasting pains of hell, where their worm shall not die, nor their fire be quenched, and where they, according to holy Scripture, can nevermore expect any hope, comfort, or redemption. Mark 9:44; Rev. 14:11.
May the Lord, through His grace, make us all worthy and meet, that this may befall none of us; but that we may thus take heed unto ourselves, and use all diligence, that on that day we may be found before Him unspotted and blameless in peace. Amen.
These, then, as has been briefly stated before, are the principal articles of our general Christian faith, as we teach and practice the same throughout in our churches and among our people; which, in our judgment, is the only true Christian faith, which the apostles in their time believed and taught, yea, testified with their life, confirmed with their death, and, some of them, also sealed with their blood; wherein we in our weakness with them and all the pious, would fain abide, live, and die, that we 'may afterwards obtain salvation with them through the grace of the Lord.

ADOPTION BY THE ALSATIAN MENNONITES, 1660


Have a good Lord's day,
William

William #40862 Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:10 PM
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So, what is this is pick on Post-millennialism day? You know I've been riding toward Amillennialism but when you guys do this you get my Norwegian up.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
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Boanerges said:
So, what is this is pick on Post-millennialism day? You know I've been riding toward Amillennialism but when you guys do this you get my Norwegian up.
I hadn't noticed any overt "picking on" Post-millennialism? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> What I have noticed is that very few statements on eschatology (in its narrower framework, i.e., the second-coming and that which is to immediately precede it) are to be found in the official Confessions of the Church... I'm referring to the historic churches of the Protestant Reformation in contrast with recent "Statements of Faith" which can be found on websites, billboards and on the back of MacDonald's' menus. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

So, tell your "Norwegian" to chill and continue on your quest for truth on this matter! [Linked Image]

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Boanerges said:
So, what is this is pick on Post-millennialism day? You know I've been riding toward Amillennialism but when you guys do this you get my Norwegian up.
Hmmm, perhaps this will help.

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Pilgrim said:

. . . What I have noticed is that very few statements on eschatology (in its narrower framework, i.e., the second-coming and that which is to immediately precede it) are to be found in the official Confessions of the Church... I'm referring to the historic churches of the Protestant Reformation in contrast with recent "Statements of Faith" . . .

That is why I asked this (see below) when I started this thread, Pete. Also there are not many older commentaries on book "Revelation" either.


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William said:

My question is, are there any other historic confessions which show millennial views or are they all silent because the men that wrote them were to fearful to be wrong?


.

William #40866 Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:53 PM
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William and Pilgrim and Boanerges,

Well I am a little gun-shy about putting this up for several reasons, which I will elaborate below, but it looks like you all missed what may be one of the most obvious millenial statements in the major confessions, namely the Savoy Declaration of 1658, the original confession of us contrary ol' Congregationalists. It is one of the few non-polity additions to the Westminster Confession, which shapes the Savoy, and is easy to miss if one simply flips to "Last Things", because it was added instead, in good Congregational fashion, under the heading Of The Church !!!

Here goes:
Quote
5. As the Lord in his care and love towards his Church, hath in his infinite wise providence exercised it with great variety in all ages, for the good of them that love him, and his own glory; so according to his promise, we expect that in the latter days, antichrist being destroyed, the Jews called, and the adversaries of the kingdom of his dear Son broken, the churches of Christ being enlarged, and edified through a free and plentiful communication of light and grace, shall enjoy in this world a more quiet, peaceable and glorious condition than they have enjoyed.

Okay, I must publicly confess that I have never more than glanced at this, largely because of its placement, even after leading a small church class through the first 1/3 of Savoy last year. And I am somewhat unnerved to hear what sounds to me, although it is couched in terms somewhat open to interpretation, explicitly postmil.

Help me out here. How did that get in there? Was postmil prevalent in 1658 London? Was Owen in on this; if not, who was? Was this a temporary phase, or has this been a constant distinctive of Congregationalists, and if so, was this language eventually to contribute to the Universalism and great social hopes into which late 18th and19thC New England plunged?

Or am I simply reading too much back into this?

Help me out, guys. This is really unsettling.


In Christ,
Paul S
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Thank you for that useful post, Paul.
It's just what I was looking for and
hopefully D.v. I can learn more about it.

William BigThumbUp

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Paul,

I too had forgotten all about that statement in the Savoy.. shame on me! [Linked Image]

As I read it, there is a definite "hint" of Postmillennialism. But is it THAT surprising given the eschatological views of many of the Puritans at that time? Those were the days of "hope"; the Puritan Hope due to the persecution(s) they had to endure.

Whether this assumed Postmillennialism was contributory to the Universalist apostasy, which was most particularly a New England phenomena one could only speculate. What is certain is that Charles Finney some years later had the most influence in the apostasy of the Congregational churches here. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />

I suppose there is some consolation knowing that this statement in the Savoy Declaration was an addition and not part of the original draft. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />


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Pilgrim #40869 Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:08 PM
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Thanks for the input. Something just seems fishy about this; given the masterful, deliberative, precision put into the several changes of terminology from WCF in other sections, this sounds downright sloppy. I mean "we expect..."? This sounds more like the endless round of bilge that supplanted Savoy starting 200 years later.

But then it may be, as you imply, just a carelessly worded expression akin to "well we all know how bad things have been, and it's looks like they're going to get a lot worse real soon, so let's not forget that eventually things will settle down again." That may be adduced from the complete lack of specific millenian language, rather just a general tendency seems to be in view, and many amils would find it hard to argue with that in certain times and places.

Bottom line may be: better not put explicitly millenial language in your confessions!


In Christ,
Paul S
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William said:
My question is, are there any other historic confessions which show millennial views or are they all silent because the men that wrote them were to fearful to be wrong?
I suppose that it is possible that the lack of confessional eschatological statements could have been due to a fear of error. However, I think that perhaps a more feasible reason is that eschatological discussions were not common at the time the Confessions were written. As you well know, the main reason the Confessions came to be was due to assaults upon the doctrines held by the churches and it seemed good to them that they put into writing what they believed the Scriptures to teach on various subjects. Some wrote a confession to distinguish themselves from others (we won't mention any group in particular here, although many of us know who they were/are rofl).

Doctrine has a "history" which most generally is the result of conflict. For example, the doctrine of justification wasn't nearly as definitively stated until the Protestant Reformation. The sovereignty of God in salvation hadn't been nearly as developed until the Remonstrants in 1617 issued their gravamen against the Church which resulted in the "Canons of Dordtrect" (1618-19). And from my readings, eschatology wasn't put on the proverbial hot-seat until John Nelson Darby came along and later C.I. Scofield with their infamous Dispensationalism.

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Paul_S #40871 Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:24 PM
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Well, I now just read it through again but with a critical eye. Now, whatever may be true about when or who wrote this, one thing seems clear... The grammatical structure of this section is horrible. Notice the highlighted sections which should flow as a complete sentence but don't even come close.


As the Lord in his care and love towards his Church, hath in his infinite wise providence exercised it with great variety in all ages, for the good of them that love him, and his own glory; so according to his promise, we expect that in the latter days, antichrist being destroyed, the Jews called, and the adversaries of the kingdom of his dear Son broken, the churches of Christ being enlarged, and edified through a free and plentiful communication of light and grace, shall enjoy in this world a more quiet, peaceable and glorious condition than they have enjoyed.


Now, perhaps my understanding of English grammar has slipped in my latter years. But this doesn't read right to me.


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Pilgrim #40872 Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:57 PM
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No, the grammar seems right, it's just that there's that massive antecedent phrase. The basic sentence is simply:

The churches of Christ ... shall enjoy in this world a more quiet, peaceable and glorious condition than they have enjoyed.

My use of "sloppy" was addressing its use of "we expect" in a confession of this specificity; the very use of the term, in my mind, introduces ambiguity and uncertainty, not something you want in a confession for the ages.

Did you mean above that this was actually an addition after the full Savoy gathering, or did you mean something else? If the former, do you have documentation?


In Christ,
Paul S
Paul_S #40873 Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:38 AM
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Paul_S said:
My use of "sloppy" was addressing its use of "we expect" in a confession of this specificity; the very use of the term, in my mind, introduces ambiguity and uncertainty, not something you want in a confession for the ages.
The "we expect" sounds all too much like Jehovah's Witnesses whose writers always use that phrase when speaking of future events which they believe the Scriptures infallible teach. Of course, the JW's didn't come on the scene until nearly 200 years later, but the phrase strikes a sour note in my brain having read so much of their literature (aka: crap).

Quote
Paul_S asked:
Did you mean above that this was actually an addition after the full Savoy gathering, or did you mean something else? If the former, do you have documentation?
I meant something else, e.g., section V reads as if it was an after thought, something tagged on after the first four sections had been carefully and prayerfully thought out. And, it is a rather unexpected place in the Confession to include this section on eschatology, at least in my mind. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


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