The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum What is essential

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Howdy folks,

I've been reading along now, and I think I see the issue here; Tom gave me a jump start..

From what I have seen there are essentially TWO (2) issue we have been dealing with: no one is sure what the answer is to

1) What is essential, and why?
and
2) Why is/isn't love included in essentials?

And the thread was hijacked by Question 2, while in the process of explaining question one. So, let me see if I can help.

1) I actually think Pilgrim answered this question, but it wasn’t completely understood by everyone: you see, the point here is that when any doctrine that has been clearly agreed upon through history is rejected by our modern counterparts, we should be on the lookout. Not because it necessarily means they are heretics promoting a false God, but rather because often these “doctrinal differences” are indicative of a far deeper and much more serious doctrinal error. Ordaining women Pastors (which is clearly, and utterly forbidden, and should be as clear as day to anyone with eyes) can be evidences of apostasy or false Churches, simply because they are either

1) dismissive the Word (not believing it’s inspiration, and therefore its authority)
or
2) rejecting the Word, because “the times have changed.” Either way there tends to be a deeper problem at the heart of the matter that would cause us to examine whether they are truly in the faith.

Therefore, it is safe for us to really be a bit narrower in our understanding of what is “essential,” mostly because most doctrinal difference have, at their root, something more serious. Also, we want to be careful that “what is essential” is actually something that would SEPARATE us from the other Christians around us. I don’t mean that in the 1 Cor 3 way, that most espouse to Biblical separation; but rather that, as was said, must separate us from Pelagianism, Anti-Pelagianism, Arminianism, and the like bunch of damnable heresies. Pilgrim, you let me know immediately if I have misrepresented your apologetic on the matter in any way. This is meant to try and simply what was said.

2) The matter of “love as an essential.” I first want to point out that when you read the texts of “love” it is almost always attached to the idea of “truth,” or some sort of “obedience.”

John 5:42-45 reads this, but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another shall come in his own name, you will receive him. 44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

It should be easy to ascertain that the meaning behind “loving God” was “seeking the glory that is from the one and only God.” So, how would we do this? Let me continue before I hit you with the big question… (maybe you’ll beat me to it).
Here’s some more text…

5 And now I ask you, lady, not as writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. [2 John 1:5-6]

Here’s my point: no one disagree about love; the Scripture clearly teaches it.. the question however is (the big question!) how are YOU defining love? When you think of love are you running to 1 Cor 13 and placing all of that in? Ah, this is a picture of how love walks, but not a definition of what love is.

I want to ask another question… were the qualifications for God’s servants any different than us? Were they not required to walk in the same manner? I would think so, since God never changed, but rather gave us Christ to help us do what we could not do. So, the Old Testament picture of God and His prophets (who were given the Decalogue, upon which Christ said was summed up by loving God and loving others), was a picture of true love.

Let me tell you what IS essential: a right knowledge of God (Phil 1:9). THIS is the critical difference between a believer and the reprobate; THIS is the thing God gives His children specifically. This will do for now. I welcome a response if I have misrepresented anyone; or anyone finds a cause of error in my words. May God bless you as you walk with Him.

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"Exegesis": n. pl. critical explanation or interpretation of a text or portion of a text, especially of the Bible.
"Critical": adj. involving skillful judgment as to truth, merit, etc.

I hope that I have completed the above definition by God's power, and gifting.

This is in response to problems/questions that Pilgrim found in my post to this subject.

Pilgrim: Perhaps you should explain how your perception of the modern church has concluded that it lacks love? …it is YOUR understanding and application of God's Word that is being discussed and questioned, and not God's infallible Word that is being questioned.

Wayne: My perception is the modern church lacks a complete understanding of God’s expectation in Luke 10:25-28. In this passage I see God expecting all to love Him with all one’s heart, with all one’s mind and with all one’s soul. With man this is impossible but with God, all things are possible including meeting this expectation.

Pilgrim: Ancillary to what you wrote above, you have gone even further and now apparently you are attempting to give serious weight to your view(s) by bringing in the "help" of the Holy Spirit. What it seems you are now stating is that God Himself, in the person of the Holy Spirit is behind what you are espousing. Thus, I nor anyone else should be too hasty to disagree with you.

Wayne: This is what I said above: “I do not have “a definition” of Christian Love. I believe the Holy Spirit has helped me construct a summary. The summary was to be posted in this forum but it got posted in the open forum some time ago.” I spent a lot of time seeking God’s perspective on that summary. As a result, I believe the Holy Spirit helped me develop it. The posts that I have been making on this site have not been subject to the same amount of prayerful consideration. This was sin on my part and I ask forgiveness from all who may have been offended by it.

Pilgrim: I could just as easily state that my disagreements with your view(s) aren't simply my own, but the Holy Spirit has helped me see their error(s) and/or inconsistencies with Scripture.

Wayne: From what I have see, I am sure you are prayerfully seeking God’s perspectives and He is helping you construct your replies.

Pilgrim: I must tell you that it grieves me to see you trying to defend a most serious heretical statement after it has been pointed out to you. Are you so obsessed with your thesis that you would deny the doctrine of the Trinity to promote it?

Wayne: Looking back at my words and attitudes at the time, I believe I was a bit obsessed. I did not see it that way at the time. It is clear to me now, that was sin and I ask forgiveness from all who may have been offended by it.

Pilgrim: Once again, the statement, "love is the Holy Spirit" is heresy of the first order. And I'll try to explain this in very simple terms:
1. A "predicate nominative" in linguistics refers to a sentence where the subject and the predicate are one and the same. For example, "John is the President." is equivalent to "The President is John." We have a biblical example in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." It would be and is 100% correct to then state that "God was the Word". In short, the PERSON named "the Word" IS the PERSON named "GOD".
2. In contrast, you have stated, "God is love, the Holy Spirit is God, love is the Holy Spirit". The error should be more than perspicuous at this point? "Love" is an attribute of God, Who is a being consisting of three PERSONS. The Holy Spirit, being one of those PERSONS, shares the ATTRIBUTE of love. But it is totally incorrect, therefore to conclude that the person IS the attribute. If "love" (an attribute) IS the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit is not a PERSON, thus effectly denying the third person of the divine Trinity. Even more simply put, love and the Holy Spirit are not equivalent.

Wayne: I appreciate your patience and the extra effort you have made to help me understand the problem you have with “love is the Holy Spirit”. After reflecting on your description of the problem, I agree I did not have a basis for saying that. That was sin and I ask forgiveness from all who may have been offended by it.

Thanks,
Eccl 4:9-10 Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor. For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up. NASU

QUESTION: Is it your opinion that a true Christian has the ability, in this life here on earth, to love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love his neighbor as [he loves] himself? And, by doing this he will inherit eternal life... according to the words of the Lord Christ in Luke 10:25-28?

The problem I am having with the above remains, despite your sincere effort to explain yourself. Why? Because IF you have sought God and the Holy Spirit has "helped you develop it", and likewise, I have prayerfully sought God's infallible Word for a true understanding of what the Holy Spirit wrote through the instrumentality of holy men of old, but I have come to an understanding that is contrary to yours, what conclusion do you think one must make?

I am thankful, as I am quite sure most everyone else is too, that you have now realized the grievous error in stating that "love is the Holy Spirit". However, it is not my/our forgiveness that you should be seeking but rather God's forgiveness in Christ. As I have tried on several occasions to express my deepest concern for the modern church over its woeful lack of sound doctrinal teaching and its practice, you have unconsiously helped to illustrate my concern most vividly. And, as I have also tried to convey to you that although I would never deny that "love" is an essential quality of the renewed heart, that love cannot exist without proper expression. Love's expression is defined and directed by one knowing and then doing all the preceptive will of God as found in Holy Scripture. One cannot possibly love God rightly without a proper knowledge and understanding of God himself. (Col 1:9,10, et al) The more one increases in a true knowledge of God, the more one will love Him. Doubtless, there are those who have a vast intellectual knowledge of God but whose hearts are far from Him, for they are yet spiritually dead (Jh 4:22-24; Acts 17:23-31). Such is the current state of the modern church... there are those who are full of intellectual knowledge, both true and false, who are teaching these things to the masses who without little question receive this false preaching/teaching and both clergy and laity assure themselves that they "love" God, yet they lack what is most necessary; to be born anew from above by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 1:16-17 (ASV) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith."

This is in response to problems/questions that Pilgrim found in my last post to this subject.

Pilgrim: Is it your opinion that a true Christian has the ability, in this life here on earth, to love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love his neighbor as [he loves] himself? And, by doing this he will inherit eternal life... according to the words of the Lord Christ in Luke 10:25-28?
Wayne: Love comes from God (1 John 4:7 and 1 John 4:19). I believe a true Christian, needs to be empower by the Holy Spirit to love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love his neighbor as [he loves] himself. In other words, the ability depends on God not on the true Christian. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus may have been acknowledging that this amount of love is a just and right requirement of the Law. In any case, I believe Jesus alone fully met this requirement and His work is the only basis of inheriting eternal life (Heb 9:15).

Pilgrim: The problem I am having with the above remains, despite your sincere effort to explain yourself. Why? Because IF you have sought God and the Holy Spirit has "helped you develop it", and likewise, I have prayerfully sought God's infallible Word for a true understanding of what the Holy Spirit wrote through the instrumentality of holy men of old, but I have come to an understanding that is contrary to yours, what conclusion do you think one must make?
Wayne: I look forward to a resolution of the problem you are referring to. Before I can suggest a path forward, I must understand your concern better. I believe you are saying you see a misunderstanding in that summary that I said I believe the Holy Spirit helped me with. Could you be specific in identifying “the misunderstanding” and “scripture that shows it is a misunderstanding”? Here is that summary:

Observations:
1. Love is a one word commandment that fulfills God's Law
(Matt 22:37-40 also see Rom 13:8, 10)
2. Love is a motivating force that drives us to act a certain way
(Luke 10:39, also see 2 Cor 5:14 & John 15:13)
3. Perfect obedient comes out of perfect Love
(John 14:15, 21, 23, 24 also see 1John 2: 5 & 1 John 4:12, 2 John 1:6
4. Obedience is easy and enjoyable when it is motivated by Love.
(Matt 11:29-30 also see 1 John 5:3)
5. The divine purpose of Love is to produce Christ-like obedience (see 2 Cor 5:14), which results in us bringing glory to God. (Matt 5:48, Rom 12:2, Phil 3:15, Rom 4:20 also see Matt 5:16)

Applications:
1. The Gospel:
Christianity is the only religion that was intended to be totally dependent on Love as a motivating force. (2 Cor 5:14-15). As a result, it is the only religion that can produce perfect obedience, Godliness and Christ likeness. (2 Pet 1:3, 4)
2. Strategy of our enemy:
Satan wants Christians to focus on symptoms of disobedience instead of the root cause of disobedience. The symptoms of disobedience are the rules that we continually break. Rules that we know God wants us to follow. As we pour more time into treating the symptoms (this sin over here and that sin over there) we have less time to address the root cause of disobedience which is the condition of our heart. (Matt 23:23-26 & John 5:42)
3. Loving God:
We Love Him because he first Loved us (1 John 4:19). Lord, help me to be drawn closer to you as I set aside time to get to know you better and get to know your love for me better.
4. Loving Others:
We avoid Love because we know it will lead to sacrifice. Our old man wants to avoid sacrifice. We need faith in order to sacrifice. Lord, help me to have faith to see others as you see them so I can love them more.

Illumination:
“Love sets Christianity apart from all other belief systems. Before we can love God (to the degree that he wants) we must understand fully what he has done “in space and time” to demonstrate his love for us. The Bible says God demonstrated his love to us when he sent his only son to die for us. The more we understand his sacrifice and love for us, the more we will love him and love to do his will. This love will take us where man alone could never go!”

Illustration:
“Man has designed cars to run on gasoline. God has designed the Christian life to run on Love. Without gasoline, a car can go only as fast as man can push it. Without love, our good deeds are nothing.” (See 1 Cor 13:2)

Transformation:
“It does not matter what happens to me. What matters is how I react to the things that happen to me because this is who I am.” (See Proverbs 27:19)

Pilgrim: Love's expression is defined and directed by one knowing and then doing all the preceptive will of God as found in Holy Scripture.
Wayne: I believe “the love of Christ” is expressed perfectly and purposefully n 2 Cor 5:14-15:
“For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died; and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again.” ASV
“For the love of Christ controls and urges and impels us, because we are of the opinion and conviction that [if] One died for all, then all died; And He died for all, so that all those who live might live no longer to and for themselves, but to and for Him Who died and was raised again for their sake. AMP

Additional NT expressions of love per the ASV:
1 Cor 16:14 Let all that ye do be done in love.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
Gal 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, (even) in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.
Eph 3:17-19 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; to the end that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be strong to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled unto all the fulness of God.
Eph 4:15-16 but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, (even) Christ; from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in (due) measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love.
Eph 6:23-24 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ with (a love) incorruptible.
Col 3:14 and above all these things (put on) love, which is the bond of perfectness.
1 Thess 4:9 But concerning love of the brethren ye have no need that one write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another;
2 Thess 3:3-5 But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil (one). And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command. And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patience of Christ.
1 Tim 1:5 But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and faith unfeigned:
2 Tim 1:7 For god gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.
2 Tim 1:13 Hold the pattern of sound words which thou hast heard from me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently:
1 Peter 4:8 above all things being fervent in your love among yourselves; for love covereth a multitude of sins:
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not abideth in death.
1 John 3:18, 23 (My) Little children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue; but in deed and truth.
1 John 4:7-12 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is begotten of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son (to be) the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No man hath beheld God at any time: if we love one another, God abideth in us, and his love is perfected in us:
1 John 4:16-5:3 And we know and have believed the love which God hath in us. God is love; and he that abideth in love abideth in God, and God abideth in him. Herein is love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as he is, even so are we in this world. There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment; and he that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen. And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. Hereby we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and do his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1. A "true Christian" IS empowered by the Holy Spirit because the Spirit dwells within a true Christian. Without this indwelling of the Spirit, one is not a "true Christian".
2. The "amount of love is a just and right requirement" is a rather ambiguous statement. For, the 'requirement' to love God with all one's heart, mind, soul and strength and to love one's neighbor as himself' is quantitatively and qualitatively infinite. In short, there is no "amount" to be considered. The Lord Christ's love for the Father is paradigmatic of what love is and how it is to be expressed. This loving of God is "required" because it is how everyone, without exception is to relate to God as Creator and particularly so as Redeemer. That relationship is maintained through the perfect keeping of God's most holy law as exemplified in Christ's perfect obedience (aka: active obedience). Thus even a redeemed, Spirit-indwelt sinner cannot meet the requirement in this life due to the sinner's remaining sin nature. A Christian is TOTALLY dependent upon Christ's righteousness alone for the initial reconciliation with God and the consequent sanctification which flows out of justification (Heb 12:14; cf. Ps 94:15; Isa 51:1; Rom 6:22, 8:29,30; Eph 1:4; 1:2Cor 6:17, 7:1; 1Pet 1:15; 2Pet 3:11; 3Jh 1:11).
3. In continuation...What Jesus answered to the lawyer came in the way of a summary of the law, not a replacement for the keeping of the law, nor a secondary means, love, by which to merit eternal life. As I have gone to great lengths to point out, love is the perfect keeping of the law of God. Neither faith nor love takes away but establishes the doctrine of the law. Love is ultimately and intimately expressed in perfect righteousness and total dependency upon God in Christ.

My objections are with a) your understanding (definition) of love, b) how it is expressed, c) the possibility of some meritorious aspect of love, and some other issues. I have repeatedly stated, as in my response immediately above, that love is the motive of a regenerated sinner's heart which is and must be expressed outwardly in practical holiness, i.e., conforming oneself to God's law; aka: sanctification.

The immediate issue, however, is your professed confidence that your entire premise concerning "love" is essentially a 'divine' teaching which the Holy Spirit has given you to whatever degree (help). Thus, the inference is that it is to be received as "truth". Further, should someone such as myself take issue with your view(s), the implication is that a) that person is automatically in error, b) is potentially not under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or c) taken to its logically conclusion, an antagonist is probably unregenerate. Since my view is essentially that of all the Reformers, Puritans and stands squarely upon the historic Confessions and Catechisms of all the Reformed Churches, one would have to conclude that all of these individuals and documents are in error at best and on the other end, at worst this great mass of men have not been 'taught' by the Holy Spirit and the documents which they brought forth and which have been adopted as being accurate summaries of biblical doctrine are solely of the flesh.

In very simple terms, since we stand opposed in our two respective views, one of us is in error. And even more serious is that the Holy Spirit has been referenced as being instrumental in revealing these views. I do hope you have now grasped the severity of the problem.

Lastly, as I have stated on more than one occasion, no one would argue that "love" is an essential element of true Christianity. But since love encompasses the entirety of a Christian's life it is incontrovertibly essential that its expression be the focus of what is essential rather than suggesting that "love" in its broadest sense is sufficient in and of itself. Faith, holiness, doctrine and worship are, in my concerted opinion, those specific aspects of "love" which are essential.

I will sum up by using an anonymous quote: "God is in the details". To say that "love" is the most important essential basically says nothing and everything. A Muslim, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon or even a Buddhist can affirm, "I love God". However, upon further inquiry to who/what is God and what it means to love the answers will reveal stark differences.