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Paul_S #610 Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:22 AM
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Paul,<br><br>Your whole post was informative and especially the last answer: "...even when our works are not successful." Successful? Hmm. Was the "...especially in the morning" part a joke? I thought it was funny anyway.<br><br>RefBap

#611 Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:29 AM
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Dear RefBap,<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Was the "...especially in the morning" part a joke? I thought it was funny anyway.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Depends what you mean by a joke. Not of my own making. The text is a verbatim quote[Linked Image] from the Approved Baltimore Catechism used to instruct millions of United States Roman Catholics in the teaching of the church for over one hundred years. <br>


In Christ,
Paul S
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Dear RefBap,<br><br>If you liked the "especially in the morning" twist, I think you will appreciate the following pair of Questions. I excised them from the former post as not directly pertinent, but they are worth reading to see the dismal effects of synergistic soteriology:<br><br>[color:purple]<br>Q. 463. What do you mean by virtue and vice? <br>A. Virtue is the habit of doing good, and vice is the habit of doing evil. An act, good or bad, does not form a habit; and hence, a virtue or a vice is the result of repeated acts of the same kind.<br><br>Q. 464. Does habit excuse us from the sins committed through it? <br>A. Habit does not excuse us from the sins committed through it, but rather makes us more guilty by showing how often we must have committed the sin to acquire the habit. If, however, we are seriously trying to overcome a bad habit, and through [color:green]forgetfulness</font color=green> yield to it, the habit may sometimes [color:red]excuse us from the sin</font color=red>.<br></font color=purple><br><br>Look at how good and evil are seen purely in terms of behavior and performance, never a matter of the heart. How does that compare with both "All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean'" and "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; they worship me in vain; their teachings are only rules taught by men."<br><br>So the thief on the cross may not have had the virtue of Faith, since he apparently didn't make a habit of asking?<br><br>Or if I have merely murdered my father, but not my mother, I am not in the grip of a Vice, since I haven't made it a habit yet?<br><br>I wish I had time to comment more on these, but they say plenty for those with ears to hear.<br><br>(If Pilgrim is reading this, take note: you may be able to cash in on your [color:green] "senior moments"</font color=green> one of these days! If you live long enough to forget everything, all those nasty vices may be overlooked!)


In Christ,
Paul S
Paul_S #613 Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:25 PM
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In reply to:

(If Pilgrim is reading this, take note: you may be able to cash in on your "senior moments" one of these days! If you live long enough to forget everything, all those nasty vices may be overlooked!)


It would therefore seem that the best course of action would be that we all prayed that God would afflict us with Alzheimer’s Disease or Amnesia, that way escaping from being cooked.



In His Grace,


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simul iustus et peccator

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Paul_S #614 Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:19 PM
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Paul S,<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Habit does not excuse us from the sins committed through it, but rather makes us more guilty by showing how often we must have committed the sin to acquire the habit. If, however, we are seriously trying to overcome a bad habit, and through forgetfulness yield to it, the habit may sometimes excuse us from the sin.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>What are your intentions here? [Linked Image] If habitually doing something makes you more guilty then you are guilty of making sense. Because you keep on making sense Paul. Is that what you are intenting to do? [Linked Image]<br><br>However the Baltimore Catechism seems to provide a nice loop hole in theology here. If you forget and just out of habit keep on beating your wife you might be excused on the basis that you did it without intending to. Surely that's forgiveable! That may be one of the reasons why Roman Catholicism is so popular. It certainly provides a lot of loop holes and entitlements for the follower of Rome.<br><br>Wes <br><br>


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Paul_S #615 Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:28 PM
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Paul,<br><br>Thanks for posting those. It's really not my intention here to make fun of anyone or their beliefs. God knows that I have been guilty of believing some of the most inaccurate and dishonoring and downright ridiculous things about Him and the way He works. <br><br>I just must be missing something because I fail to see what doing good deeds "especially in the morning" has to do with anything. Am I to assume that doing good deeds in the morning is more virtuous than doing them in the afternoon or evening? Who came up with this? I suppose I'm focusing on a minor matter anyway, but that still strikes me as being funny. <br><br>May the Lord guide us all out of our misconceptions,<br>RefBap

Pilgrim #616 Fri Jul 26, 2002 4:51 PM
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I just have to say that the microwave is one of the coolest *.gifs that I have ever seen[Linked Image]<br><br>Ehud

Paul_S #617 Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:12 PM
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Just a side note here. My youngest daughter, a tender hearted girl who takes after her mother, recently asked me the difference between what we hold as truth and what Roman Catholics hold as truth. I printed out that webpage Pilgrim has been so kind to put up for us. After she read it she looked at me with tears in her eyes and asked me how could someone want to believe such things. That it was so much better knowing that Christ has done it all for our salvation.

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Thanks for sharing Paul! Where was this alleged "works/salvation" you said you were going to show us in all that? I saw that GRACE must PRECEED any WORKS - which is something I have been saying all along. If you think works are unnecessary, you're not reading the whole Bible my friend. Please, for all the readers - tell us what kind of "faith" it is that has no works.<br> <br>In JMJ,<br> <br>Scott<<<<br> <br>

#619 Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:11 PM
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RefBap wrote: <br>Paul,<br><br>Your whole post was informative and especially the last answer: "...even when our works are not successful." Successful? Hmm. Was the "...especially in the morning" part a joke? I thought it was funny anyway.<br><br>RefBap <br> <br>[color:purple]Scott replies: RefBap, please reread those questions and answers from the Baltimore Catechism. Those "works" mentioned as "not successful" were not successful in gaining any merit. It was not about salvation - those who are not saved cannot attain any merit to begin with; those who are saved can gain and/or lose "rewards" or "merits" in heaven. Where are you storing your treasure, on earth or in heaven? <br><blockquote>Luk 18:22 Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee. Sell all whatever thou hast and give to the poor: and thou shalt have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me.</blockquote><br>What's this?! DOING something to have treasure in heaven?! <br> <br>Those with an open mind can surely see the consistency between Scripture and what Paul_S quoted from the Baltimore Catechism! (Thanks again Paul!) [Linked Image]<br> <br>In JMJ,<br> <br>Scott<<<<br> <br> <br>

#620 Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:37 PM
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RefBap wrote: It's really not my intention here to make fun of anyone or their beliefs. <br> <br>[color:purple]Scott responds: Thanks RefBap - I appreciate your lack of sarcasm. I am not even going to bother responding further to some of Paul's diatribes[Linked Image] - such is not worth the time or effort. I will continue with those who remain sincere, and will with Paul too, if he changes his tune a bit.</font color=purple><br><br>RefBap continues: I just must be missing something because I fail to see what doing good deeds "especially in the morning" has to do with anything. Am I to assume that doing good deeds in the morning is more virtuous than doing them in the afternoon or evening? Who came up with this? I suppose I'm focusing on a minor matter anyway, but that still strikes me as being funny. <br> <br>[color:purple]Scott replies: Well, if it was said the way you took it, I would think it funny too. The point of "especially in the morning" was regarding the making of "good intentions." (So it appears you were "missing something" - see quote below from Paul's original posting). If you start your day with good intentions, you're more likely to follow-through with them. If you don't even think about good intentions till later in the day, or even till night - you may have wasted a whole day away. So, regarding meditating on good intentions - it is especially a good thing to do in the morning - for it "sets the day."<br> <br>Is that a bit more clear, and perhaps less "funny?"<br> <br>In JMJ,<br> <br>Scott<<<<br></font color=purple><br> <br>Quote from Paul's original on this subject, with the emphasis changed a bit:<br><blockquote>Q. 483. Does God reward anything but our good works?<br>A. God rewards our good intention and desire to serve Him, even when our works are not successful. We should make this <font class="big">good intention</font> often during the day, and <font class="big">especially in the morning</font>.</blockquote><br>[color:purple]Noting, the Catechism in this particular Q/A is talking about "anything <font class="big">BUT</font> works." I hope that helps clarify, with the emphasis put in different places.</font color=purple><br> <br> <br>

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Scott,
In reply to:

Where was this alleged "works/salvation" you said you were going to show us in all that?



Throughout. Any of the redeemed can see it.

In reply to:

I saw that GRACE must PRECEED (sic) any WORKS


Really? How about: A. 842 Good works done in mortal sin profit us [color:red]by obtaining for us the grace to repent and sometimes temporal blessings

In reply to:

If you think works are unnecessary, you're not reading the whole Bible my friend. Please, for all the readers - tell us what kind of "faith" it is that has no works.


If you can tell me where I made either of these statements, I will be happy to respond to your request.

P.S. I just noticed your self-restriction on further contact with me, stated in your reply to RefBap, which all hinges on my sincerity. Would it matter if I mentioned that I am so habitually insincere that I actually forget that I am doing it? But I am sincerely trying very hard to never be insincere again!


Last edited by Paul_S; Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:12 PM.

In Christ,
Paul S
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Paul asked:<br> <br>Please answer the following questions:<br><br>1) At this moment, are you [color:red]doing works in the state of grace?</font color=red><br><br>2) What assures you of the truth of your answer to #1?<br><br>3) Will you continue [color:red]doing works in the state of grace</font color=red> until the consummation of all things?<br><br>4) What assures you of the truth of your answer to #3?<br><br>5) What comfort, if any, does your reason for your responses to these questions give you?<br><br>[color:purple]Scott replies:<br> <br>1) That's a rather personal question. Whether or not I am in need of confession is not really any of your business. For the sake of argument, let's just say that I am in the state of grace. . . at this very moment, I am sharing the Truth with you - so I guess you could say I am participating in a good work, at this very moment.[Linked Image]<br> <br>2) I am doing what 1 Peter 3:15 commands, sharing the joy that is in my heart. The Bible assures me.[Linked Image]<br> <br>3) Probably not, but thankfully Jesus provided me with the means of reconcilliation when I stumble. Even though I am not worthy of His grace, He has freely given it to me and loves me even in my failings.[Linked Image]<br> <br>4) What assures me that I will fall again at some point in the future? Well, that's a rather subjective question. I am relatively sure that I will, at some point in time, fall again. Strange that you'd ask me that.[Linked Image]<br> <br>5) I am comforted to know that even when I fall, He is there to help me back up. I hope I don't fall, but I am a sinner - and likely will fall again and again.[Linked Image] Thankfully, His grace is neverending.[Linked Image]<br> <br>In JMJ,<br> <br>Scott<<<<br></font color=purple><br> <br> <br>

#623 Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:41 AM
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Scott,

Do you see the disconnect between your previous Catholicism is not about "works of the law" but, "works done in the state of grace." and your (rather touchy!) reply to my question concerning [color:purple]your "works done in the state of grace": [color:red]That's a rather personal question. Whether or not I am in need of confession is not really any of your business
You have portrayed yourself as a Roman Catholic, but now are either unwilling or unable to state that the "essence of Catholicism" is true about you, other than in a hypothetical sense?


In Christ,
Paul S
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Pilgrim writes: The fact is that I did follow the point which Paul_S made and your response to it. The fact is that you are either incapable of comprehending it and/or you are ensnared by your own obstinance against the truth of it. <br> <br>[color:purple]Scott replies: I do not question whether or not you read the exchange between myself and Paul_S, but you haven't admitted the [color:red]fact</font color=red> that the context of that passage from Scripture is talking about rejecting works of the law. You can try to change the subject all you want, but you can't change the Scriptures. The [color:red]truth</font color=red> of what I was saying was the [color:red]fact</font color=red> that the passage in question was about [color:red]works of the law</font color=red>. Why do you refuse to admit that? Are you afraid to admit I am right about that?</font color=purple> <br> <br>Pilgrim continues: As I wrote before, and it shall be my refrain forever more, the Roman Catholic church speaks of "grace" but in fact it is works+grace=salvation that it teaches. <br> <br>[color:purple]Scott responds: If you wish to continue professing a lie. . . Pilgrim, the Church does not teach "works+grace=salvation," sorry, you're just dead wrong on that one. Salvation is purely by the grace of Jesus Christ. Now, He gives to us the gift of Faith - but if we do nothing with that gift, then such a faith is a "dead faith" and such a faith cannot save you. Grace preceeds, then comes the gift of Faith, then there is a matter of what we do with that Faith. Do we "practice" it, or do we merely pay it lip-service on Sunday? <br><br>"Faith Alone" is also a lie and an invention of the protestors of the 16th century. "Faith Alone" is not scriptural, and in [color:red]fact</font color=red> the <font class="big">only</font> place we find the words "faith" and "alone" together in Scripture is in <font class="big">negation</font> of this concept. <br> <br>These [color:red]facts</font color=red> are indisputable.<br> <br>In JMJ,<br>Scott<<<<br> <br><br>

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