The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum God is into the details...

Well, tonight was a very interesting night!

After going to church this evening, my mom and I went to go drive around the area where I just bought my condo (I am so very excited! Lord willing, I will move there around March or April.)

Anywaqy, my mom and I had a very interesting discussion while we ate supper. This morning my mom's pastor had preached on suffering. The pastor does not believe that God is in control of every single detail of our lives. Although God has a perfect plan that cannot be stopped, he said, God in no way causes suffering to happen.

Now, I tried to explain that God is not the author of evil nor does He tempt anyone. I tried to explain second causes, God's sovereignty, and Luther's idea that "even the devil is God's devil" (I used the example of Job). I read to her Romans 9.

But my mom said that would cause us to be puppets on strings, and that God would be the author of evil if all this were true. She said she does not believe that God has to have any sort of "plan B" and that God can choose to be in control of all details if He wants, but He does not need to be. She did not understand Romans 9. She said she had not been getting much from reading the Jerry Bridges book I gave her because she did not agree with it.

So, here are my questions:

1. How can we explain the toal sovereignty of God without denying that we are held responsible for our sin?

2. How do we respond to the "puppeteer" accusation?

3. How can we prove God is not the author of evil?

4. Does God cause all things to happen? For instance, my mom asked whether or not God caused the World Trade Center tragedy.



I'll post the other interesting thing that happened tonight in the prayer request section.

Marie,

The easiest thing for me to do is to refer you to an article! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> So, that's exactly what I'm going to do, since I took the time to put it online. Most all your questions are dealt with there. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Clicky here: OBJECTIONS COMMONLY URGED AGAINST THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION.

In His Grace,

Thanks!

Another related question: I chose a part from the Jerry Bridges book Trusting God for my mom to read. In it, Bridges reacts to a statement made by Andrew Murray, in which Murray asserts that God limits His sovereignty in order to allow for man's free will.

I have not read any of Murray, but I was under the impression he was a Calvinist! Am I wrong?

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> Yu be wrong! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are perhaps confusing Andrew Murray with Ian Murray, or perhaps John Murray? Andrew Murray was an Arminian "Pietist", who was a forerunner of the "Deeper Life" heresy. I have found little to no value in reading anything by Andrew Murray. In fact, to a new babe in Christ, his literature can be very dangerous indeed.

In His Grace,

Propadeutic.com has Andrew Murray under Reformers of the Recent Past:

"Andrew Murray (1828-1917) - Reformed evangelical who briefly entertained Pentecostal views of healing but later repudiated them. His writings are primarily devotional and, while convicting, have a broad appeal among all conservative Christians. His books include Humility, Absolute Surrender, Abide in Christ, The Secret of Intercession, and With Christ in the School of Prayer. Not to be confused with TV Bible teacher Arnold Murray or theologian John Murray.""

I am not going to exposit this for your mother, but more of a reaffirmation
for myself. God has shown me that he is in complete control through
many real life examples. What kind of a god would he be if he was
not in full control? I am not going to explain these things well because
they require knowing it, even if I have difficulty explaining it in words.
It requires faith, a measure of faith that God reveals to the chosen.
My mother says she is a Christian and can quote various verses as
to why she is saved, but she also has trouble with believing the Sovereignty
of God. If I had to make a guess, God has not yet given her the measure of faith
or knowledge that requires her to believe in that Sovereignty.

When I was first saved, I believed in free will, but God used people in my life
and his Word to pull me close and show me that HE is in control, not my will,
but his will.

1. How can we explain the total sovereignty of God without denying that we are held responsible for our sin?
Romans 8 & 9 is my proof, I look at Pharaoh, he was a vessel
made for the very purpose that he was. Or what about Satan, God knew before he created
Satan what Satan’s purpose would be. God designed Satan for the purpose that
he is fulfilling today just like all of the other vessels.

2. How do we respond to the "puppeteer" accusation?
God is in control, he just is, again we are vessels made for his purposes.

3. How can we prove God is not the author of evil?
Tough to answer, Satan does the dirty work, but God is not directly to blame.
That is about all I can say about that. Look at the trials of Job, God was the initiator.

4. Does God cause all things to happen? For instance, my mom asked whether or not God caused the World Trade Center tragedy.
Do you think God was shocked at what happened on 9/11?
What about the flood? God knew it was to happen, God planned it to happen,
God allowed/made it to happen.

Don’t get me wrong about this, I love Jewish
people and “Jews for Jesus”, but what about Hitler, I believe that was leftovers directly
related to Israel wanting a King instead of a theocracy centuries ago.
Very sad, but I do believe applicable.

Is there a difference between allowing something to happen and causing something to happen? My mom says that God is not the cause of everything that happens. She doesn't understand second causes either. She can't accept that God is absolutely sovereign and man is completely held responsible for sin.

My mom says that God does not control every detail in our lives and when I asked her "who controls them?" she says "I didn't say God wasn't in control." She disagrees with Jerry Bridges too, so I know I am explaining this correctly to her.

The debate is over because she got very defensive when I tried to get her to explain herself more.

For my own understanding, how should we define "permits," "allows," and "causes" when it comes to the actions of God?

Should I think God has allowed, permitted, or caused my mom not to see or understand? And yes, I know my mom is responsible herself too.

And why do I seem to have theological debates with those in my family who quite possibly are not even Christians? Isn't that like debating life with a dead man?

All I know is that somehow God orchestrates everything,
but he hasn’t revealed all of the details yet.

I guess we will find out in heaven someday.
Night All!

Praise God for your simple trust there. Good night and may the Lord give you a very restful sleep.

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

That explains it as far as I am concerned <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />